Joe Biden Interview with Lester Holt

Mr. President, thank you for sitting down with us. There’s a lot to talk about. I’d like to start with the horrible events of last weekend. It has shocked a lot of Americans. A political rally. Your opponent, Donald Trump, shot in the middle of greeting his supporters. You spoke to Mr. Trump afterward. Can you give me a sense of that conversation?

Very cordial. I told him how concerned I was and wanted to make sure I knew how he was actually doing. He sounded good. He said he was fine, and he thanked me for calling him. I told him he was literally in the prayers of Jill and me, and I hope his whole family was weathering this.

You were in Delaware when this happened. What was your first reaction?

My first reaction was, “My god, this is…” Look, there’s so much violence now, and the way we talk about it… And the whole notion that there is this… There’s no place at all for violence in politics in America. None. Zero. We’ve reached a point where it’s become too commonplace, not in assassinations, but to talk about it. For example, the January 6th, the attack on the Capitol. Lester, I got in this race early on for the 2020 race. I wasn’t going to run again because I lost my son. I didn’t feel… Until I watched what happened in Charlottesville, Virginia. Those folks coming out of the woods with torches, carrying swastikas, singing the same Nazi bile. It was accompanied by this Ku Klux Klan. A young woman was killed, and it was a bystander. And the then president was asked, “What do he think?” He said, “They’re very fine people on both sides.” Not fine people on both sides. No excuse, zero.

Well, let’s talk about the conversation this has started. And it’s really about language, what we say out loud and the consequences of those. You called your opponent an existential threat on a call a week ago. You said, “It’s time to put Trump in the bullseye.” There’s some dispute about the context, but I think you appreciate that words matter.

I didn’t say crosshairs. I was talking about focus on. Look, the truth of the matter was, what I guess I was talking about at the time was there was very little focus on Trump’s agenda.

Yeah, the term was bullseye.

It was a mistake to use the word. I didn’t say crosshairs. I meant bullseye. I meant focus on him. Focus on what he’s doing. Focus on his policies. Focus on the number of lies he told in the debate. I mean, there’s a whole range of things that… Look, I’m not the guy that said I want to be a dictator on day one. I’m not the guy that refused to accept the outcome of the election. I’m not the guy who said they won’t accept the outcome of this election, automatically. You can’t only love your country when you win. So the focus was on what he’s saying and… I mean, the idea.

But have you taken a step back and done a little soul-searching on things that you may have said that could incite people who are not balanced?

Well, I don’t think… Look, how do you talk about the threat to democracy, which is real, when a president says things like he says? Do you just not say anything because I may incite somebody? Look, I have not engaged in that rhetoric. Now, my opponent is engaged in that rhetoric. He talks about there’ll be a bloodbath if he loses, talking about how he’s going to forgive all the… actually, I guess suspend the sentences of all those who were arrested and sentenced to go to jail because of what happened in the Capitol. I’m not out there making fun of… Remember the fixture of Donald Trump when Nancy Pelosi’s husband was hit with a hammer, talking about joking about it?

This doesn’t sound like you’re turning down the heat though. You’ve talked about the-

Oh no, no, no, no, no. Look, what I’m turning down… We have to stop the whole notion that there are certain things that are contrary to our democracy that we’re for. The idea of saying that, “I didn’t win the election,” when every court in the land, every court in the land, 120 appeals, including the conservative Supreme Court said we won. The idea of having a loyalty pledge from all the folks who are in Republican MAGA. Not all Republicans, the MAGA Republicans saying that, “No, we lost the election,” inflaming the people to say… I mean-

So what can you and what will you do, at least things you can control, to lower down the temperature, the rhetoric out there?

Continue to talk about the things that matter to the American public. It matters whether or not you accept the outcome of elections. It matters whether or not you, for example, talk about how you’re going to deal with the border instead of talking about people as being vermin. I mean, those things matter. That’s the kind of language that is inflammatory.

Mr. President, you’ve been in politics a very long time, so let’s speak frankly. We’re all adults here. Has this shooting changed the trajectory of this race?

I don’t know, and you don’t know either.

I don’t know. But it’s something you’ve given thought to?

No. I’ve thought less about the trajectory of the case than two things. One, what his health is, that that was secure. Number one. And number two, what happens from here on in terms of the kind of coverage that the president and vice president and former president and new vice president get in terms of… Look, I’ve never seen a circumstance where you ride through certain rural areas of the country and people have signs there, big Trump signs with metal signs saying, “F Biden,” and a little kid standing there, putting up his middle finger. I mean, that’s the kind of stuff that is just inflammatory and a kind of viciousness. It’s a very different thing than to say, “Look, I really disagree with Trump’s… the way he takes care of taxes, the way he wants a $5 trillion tax cut for people who make a lot of money next time round.” Doesn’t focus on working-class people.

Well, those are policy issues. And our history is a country that can thoroughly hash out those issues.

Right. And if you notice, what do I talk about with him? The policy issues where he’s dividing the country, the policy issues that relate to democracy.

Another question, if I can, about Saturday. Of course, the former president was wounded. One of his supporters died. A couple of more people were seriously injured. Was this a massive security failure?

I have had two meetings in the Situation Room with all the intelligence communities of FBI, Secret Service Center, and I’ve asked for a totally independent analysis. And we’ll see what happens when that comes back.

Do you have confidence in the Secret Service? Do you feel safe?

I feel safe with the Secret Service. But look, what we did see was the Secret Service who responded risked their lives and responded. They’re ready to give their lives to the President. The question is should they have anticipated what happened? Should they have done what they needed to do to prevent this from happening? That’s a question that’s an open question.

Is it acceptable that you have still not heard, at least publicly, from the Secret Service director?

Well, I’ve heard from him.

But have you heard from her publicly?

Publicly. I’ve sat down in a Situation Room downstairs with Secret Service, the FBI, the National Security Agencies, the Homeland Security, all the major elements. There’s two pieces of this too. And it’s not an excuse, it’s just an explanation. There’s a major piece of this relates to domestic, local law enforcement. They play a large role, and so it’s a different… I’m not saying they weren’t competent either. I’m just saying it’s a complicated process. And [inaudible 00:08:22] has changed, by the way, Lester, is… You know me, I like to meet people. I like to walk out, shake hands, move, look at people in the eye, see what they’re thinking.

(08:32)
It’s really curtailed that ability on my part, and everybody’s part, and so… Because there’s a heightened notion that… When you say there’s nothing wrong with going to the Capitol, breaking in, threatening people, a couple cops dying, putting up a noose, a gallows for the former vice president. And then you say you’re going to forgive people for that, you’re going to pardon them? That was just a normal response? That is not… I have my entire career voted against and railed against and moved against the idea of violence is never appropriate. Never, never, never, never, never in politics.

All right. I want to ask you about some other developing news today, if I can. Judge Cannon dismissed the documents cases you may have heard in Mar-a-Lago. Can I first get your reaction to that?

I’m not surprised. It comes from the immunity decision the Supreme Court ruled on. And Clarence Thomas in his dissent said that independent prosecutors appointed by the attorney general aren’t legit. That’s the basis on which this judge moved to dismiss. But I had an independent prosecutor look at me. They spent months on my… going through… and I was totally cooperative. And out of my house. I don’t know, the last time in there were like 10, 12 agents in my house for nine hours, unaccompanied, going through every single thing I had. That’s appropriate. And they looked at me and concluded I didn’t do a damn thing wrong. But my generic point is that it’s… Well, the basis upon which the case was thrown out, I find specious because I don’t agree with Clarence Thomas’ dissent and/or the Supreme Court decision on immunity.

In light of this decision, the delay in the Georgia case, the Supreme Court decision on immunity, which you referenced, the former president has seen a series of legal wins recently. You have actively campaigned on his legal woes. Can you do anything like that anymore?

Sure. I can talk about what I think is appropriate. What I think is appropriate. I think the Supreme Court made a terrible decision. I think the justice they appointed have in fact been the most conservative. And I would argue, if you survey constitutional scholarship, they seem out of touch with what the founders intended.

Before this violent turn of events over the weekend, the talk, as you know, was about you and your future, if you should stay in the race. Your allies, James Clyburn, Nancy Pelosi, have kind of put it out there that they’re waiting for your decision, giving you time to make your decision. What I hear from you is that you made your decision. Are you still comfortable in that decision? Has anything changed in the last several days?

No.

What do you make of people like Nancy Pelosi though, who seem to be of the opinion that there was a window for you to make this choice? What aren’t they getting?

Look, we knew this was going to be a close race from the moment he announced. The idea that we are in a situation where… If you look at all the polling data, the polling data shows a lot of different things, but there’s no wide gap between us. It’s essentially a toss-up race. And I think one of the arguments that get made, you have the most successful presidency of any president in modern history, maybe since Franklin Roosevelt, passed more major legislation no one thought could get done. We’re able to put together consensus. We’re able to unite NATO. We’re able to deal in foreign policy. Why don’t you just decide to rest on those laurels? And the answer is because the job’s not finished.

Do you feel like you’ve weathered the storm on this issue of whether you should be on the ticket or not?

Look, 14 million people voted for me to be the nominee in the Democratic Party, okay? I listen to them.

In your last TV interview, you were asked if you had watched the debate. And your answer was, “I don’t think so, no.” Have you since seen it?

I’ve seen pieces of it. I’ve not watched the whole debate.

And the reason I ask because… I guess the question is are you all on the same page? Are you seeing what they saw, which was moments of, frankly, that you appeared to be confused?

Lester, look, why don’t you guys ever talk about the 18, the 28 lies he told? Where are you on this? Why doesn’t the press ever talk about that? 28 times. It’s confirmed. He lied in that debate. I had a bad, bad night. I wasn’t feeling well at all, and I had been… Without it making… I screwed up, but…

I just asked the question because the idea that you may or may not have seen what some of these other folks have seen, you’re not on the same-

I don’t have to see it. I was there. I don’t have to see it. I was there. And by the way, seriously, you won’t answer the question, but why didn’t the press talk about all the lies he told?

Well, we’re-

I didn’t hear anything about that.

We have reported many of the issues that came up during that debate.

No, you haven’t. No, you haven’t.

Well, we’ll provide you with them.

God, love you.

Okay. President Obama put out a statement after the debate. But should he and Michelle Obama be doing more to express their confidence in you?

No, they’re helping me. They’ve helped me from the beginning. This is my job to get this done.

Have you talked to him recently about this?

I haven’t talked to him in a couple weeks.

Have you talked to him since this issue came to light, since the debate?

I may have. I don’t think so.

Who do you listen to on deeply personal issues, like the decisions whether to stay in the race or not?

Me. Look, I’ve been doing this a long time. The idea that I’m the old guy, I am. I’m old. But I’m only three years older than Trump, number one. And number two, my mental acuity has been pretty damn good. I’ve gotten more done than any president has in a long, long time in three and a half years. So I’m willing to be judged on that. I understand. I understand why people say, “God, he’s 81 years old. Whoa. What’s he going to be when he’s 83 years old or 84 years old?” It’s a legitimate question to ask.

I want to ask you about… Just shortly before you and I sat down, former President Trump named his vice presidential pick, J.D. Vance. What does that tell you, his qualities? What does that tell you about former President Trump’s values, and in terms of who he will surround himself with in the next administration, should he win?

Well, it’s not unusual. He’s going to surround himself with people who agree completely with him, have a voting record that support him. Even though, if you go back and listen to those things that J.D. Vance said about Trump.

Well, he said some things about you. Yeah.

Oh no, he said something about me, but see what he said about Trump. What’s with you guys? Come on, man. Look, the point I’m making is that J.D. Vance has adopted the same policies. No exceptions on abortion, making sure that he supports of the new $5 trillion tax cut that Trump wants to give in the next administration, signing onto the whole notion of whether or not… He says there’s no climate change that’s happening. I mean, he signed onto the Trump agenda, which he should if he’s running with Trump.

Mr. Trump has said he’s giving you a chance to redeem yourself. Basically, the idea of engaging in another debate.

We’re going to have another debate.

Yeah, you’re going to have one in September that’s on the books. Would you be open to doing one in the next few weeks?

I’m going to debate him when we agreed to debate, and I’m going to debate him in September.

But if the opportunity came up to do one between now and then? Is there a sense of wanting to get back on the horse?

I’m on the horse. Where have you been? I’ve done 22 major events, met thousands of people, overwhelming crowds. A lot’s happening. I’m on the horse. What I’m doing is going out and demonstrating to the American people that I have command of all my faculties, that I don’t need notes, I don’t need… I can go out and answer any questions at all. And I stood there when NATO was in town. I stood there for an hour and answered questions.

If you were to continue to run and be officially nominated, what happens if you have another episode like we saw during the debate?

What happens if another…

Yeah. What happens if you have another performance on that par, on that level?

I don’t plan on having another performance on that level.

All right. Mr. President, it’s always good to talk to you. Good to see you. Thank you for making some time for us.

Sometimes come and talk to me about what we should be talking about.

All right.

Okay. The issues.

Always happy to talk. Thanks for watching. Stay updated about breaking news and top stories on the NBC News app, or follow us on social media.