Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Yes, we got that time to really just talk and discuss the world that we're in, but also just discuss a bit more about our personal lives. And I think that's the beauty of being in entertainment is that you have these jobs, but you also have wonderful relationships with people.

I originally come from New York City. I was a bit of a bohemian child.

I'm an only child.

That's true. It comes from an old movie.

Haley Mills was very well known for playing twins in the original parent trap. And when she got a little bit older, did a film with her dad, John Mills, I believe, where she played a girl named Spring. And the film is called The Truth About Spring.

And my mom was a big fan.

So I have a complicated history. As one might imagine. My family's in northern Minnesota and my birth father, who's a wonderful man, I love him, he sort of dealt with some stuff and just couldn't be present at the time. And when I was younger, my mom met an artist who was living on the Lower East Side and basically took off to New York City with him. She was very into experimental theater and he was an abstract painter.

Yes. And so there was a period when I was very young. I remember in Soho it used to be all textile mills and there would be scraps of fabric leftover from whatever function that factory was doing just on the sidewalks, just in garbage bags in the sidewalk. And my parents would take those textile scraps and make puppets and we would go outside the Metropolitan Museum and have a table and sell puppets. That's one of my earliest memories.

So I grew up in this arena of creativity around a lot of music, painting, art. All of it was just uniformly together in the environment.

No, it wasn't that. It's just that it was always there,

Well, I was around a lot of artists, but I think when I say it was always there, it's that I would hear a song and get stuck on it. I remember being, I think two years old and listening to Here Comes The Sun by The Beatles, and I would listen to it

50 times in a row. And so that's really how I think of it, is that I would just almost get stuck in a song. And I have a bunch of those that have just happened naturally. And when I hear those songs, they define certain moments in my life.

Look, I was around a lot of different musical scenes. I also lived in upstate New York and Woodstock, so I was around a lot of musicians. I was around tons of artists in New York City. I came up through that hip hop scene. I was just a fan. I just loved it. So

There's so many.

Innately, I've had a lot of different phases. I listened to a lot of metal for a while. I wouldn't say it like that. I would say that music has had different phases. Naturally. I never put effort into it, and so I would just be a fan and I stay that way in my job now. I don't force myself to go to things and see things. I just latch onto it. So is there a genre that I don't like? I would say that the music that I don't like is mean.

Mean-spirited, violent. I don't tend to any genre that has that contained in it. And I like music. That's a release of energy. That's an expression. I don't mind it being loud and aggressive. I just don't like hateful music.

Correct? Yeah, absolutely. I am a bit unusual that I've done very different jobs within film music, excuse me, and television streaming, all of that. But my life's work has been really passionately dedicated to film music. Most certainly. I actually started as an intern for an incredible woman named Pilar McCurry, who was just a defining music supervisor. She passed away a few years ago.

Her? She was just an incredible human being and I started as her intern and she became my best friend and my mentor. And I often say it's really important who you learn from. And I got very lucky because at the time I was just trying to find a job and to pay my rent and to get by that I happened to tap into this brilliant person and learn a ton from her. She did a lot of very amazing work. She did this soundtrack that was Seminole called Love Jones. It was incredible. Still to this day, it's sort of my mantra of what a soundtrack can be.

It's absolutely gorgeous and I recommend everybody go find it and listen to it. And that's something that I saw her really curate, really work with the director, really put together and I saw her process with that up close.

My guess, I don't know, but I think there's something to do with multitasking. I think women's brains, this is not scientific, this is certainly just anecdotal, but I feel that women are really good multitaskers and I think it's a job that calls for that.

So yeah, I started as an intern and I'm now a president. You learn everything along the way. Right? You bet. And I was never too big to do any part of it. I just dove in and did the

I liked it.

Have a seat of something that you like. Although my husband says it's still work, it's not called play right. People say love what you do. So here's what a coordinator does, and again, there's not exact job definitions like everything in Hollywood, but essentially you're kind of collecting materials. You might be doing song searches.

You're there basically to assist the music supervisor.

In general? And again, there's a lot of gray area, but in general, a music supervisor helps curate the songs for the project.

Yes. And helps realize the director's vision of what those songs.

Depends on the film.

Quite often, I would say early if they haven't shot the film. And there are certain songs that need to be dealt with on camera. You need to make sure that those songs are cleared and picked.

That's

That's correct.

It depends. So sometimes it's somebody dancing on camera or singing a song. You always get that classic like, oh, they're in the car and they hear a song and then they sing along. That's absolutely something that a music supervisor would help.

It can depend. Sometimes you have a director who has a wonderful relationship. Sometimes you have the studio who just goes, Hey, here's some really amazing people we've worked with. Sometimes a producer.

Well, I always start with the director on everything.

Always My job is to make sure that I'm telling the story that the director wants to tell. So my job is to support how that comes to life.

I agree. I think the music adds an emotional height to the movie that made me very moved. And I think the selection of the artists that are in it are just really powerful.

Well, that one was a little different. We had a partner in it.

I came in later. I think once we saw the cut, it was like, okay, now we've got to kind of go realize all this stuff. So let's bring in the troops. And there were some complicated clearances to be done.

Yeah, exactly. And things were, there was some really beautiful choices, but there's a lot sort of technically behind the scenes

Right. Or what's the content of the scene?

Yes. What you start with is looking at the script. You talk to the director, get the vision, and then you go by how much the movie is being made for as a whole and the market value of the songs.

Yeah, usually people just say, Hey, spring, can you take a look and give us your recommend? And it's based on me having read the script, speaking to the filmmaker, speaking to the director typically, and saying, Hey, this is what I think this is.

Well, I mean, it's absolutely something that is a conversation, right? That's when you come in early and you say, Hey, this is something that's going to be very tricky. And sometimes it's not just cost, by the way. Sometimes it's knowing an artist or an artist estate's preference, and that just comes with experience going, Hey, they may not want their song used in this way. And to me, that's the artist's, right? I come from an artist's point of view.

I think when I see something that I think would be really mutually beneficial, I've absolutely advocated for it. Absolutely.

Yes.

Yeah, because sometimes you don't get a lot of context.

Correct.

Okay. This is always my example with it. Kevin, give me a couple words. Just say any words that come to your mind

Okay. That is your song. Kevin has written a song with the lyrics for score and seven years ago that is your publishing. You're the songwriter, you sing it beautifully

Exquisite. And you say Spring, I want you to use this in a movie, please. I'm pitching it to you. And I go, okay, Kevin, I'm going to pay you as the songwriter for your publishing and also your recording of singing it. Now what if I sing it that recording? And we want to use that in a film.

Correct? Because I'm singing your words.

Me at that point, because I've sung it. That's a

That is individual, right?

The wild west of Hollywood.

And the global world, any artist can decide what other party they want to have ownership. Or if you're going to a publishing company that's really an artist's call.

I would assume that every case exists. That's probably absolutely

Well, because there's copyright law and other people can speak to it better than I where you're allowed to cover. If I wanted to sing a Sinatra song, but

Correct. It doesn't mean that I can use it in a film, but So if you look at copyright law, so that to keep it more fair use, and again, you'd have to talk to an attorney more about this, but anybody can go cover anything you could have

No, that's where I come in. I have to get the rights. But anybody can put out an album of covers of anything.

Go look, there's some pretty wild covers out there.

Yeah.

And therein it's

Yeah.

Correct. Yeah, it could be.

But it's fun though.

It's the best part of what I do is the treasure hunting and the understanding of the business behind the creative. I love the creative, but the business behind it is equally as fascinating.

Okay. Well, I wasn't fully prepared. I've done hundreds of movies and I should have probably had some of this prepared.

I would say I was definitely the first person to use Gary Clark Jr. In a film. I've had a lot of those things where I've been the first to kind of license people. Well, that's

Yeah. I've done a lot of that. One of my proudest times is absolutely the Spider Verse soundtrack, which I helped curate first of all, and got Sunflower.

It's amazing. I mean, for me, I always look at it for the artist because doing a film song is a tricky art. So to be recognized for that personally, yes, it's amazing. But it's also like you took the gamble with us. You went on the journey, you figured out how to tell the essence of that story musically, and now you're getting recognized for it. So something like Sunflower is an incredible song.

Yeah. Well, as an executive music producer and I helped bring the song.

No, it's not that it's contractual, it just reflects the work actually done.

Well, I think it depends. I think what it is is I'd have to go look at everybody's histories, but I think that in general, when you're at a studio, it's not about credit, but when you're really doing certain things on soundtracks, the work should reflect what was done.

I see a tremendous number of people that are truly passionate music executives. A couple people that come to mind that have been influential. Rob Stringer, who runs all of the Sony Music Group. He's somebody. Do you work

I work very closely with his whole team. Yes. Rob's always available if we need him for something. On the picture side, he's a great partner, but he also is just somebody I've watched come up and nurture artists. And what I've seen him do has been very impressive from Adele to just growing into this super mogul, just he cares about artists. So there's tremendous executives. I just had another wonderful experience with Sylvia Rohn and Ezekiel Lewis on Tell Me Bad Boys. I think that when you're bringing the right opportunities to artists, they just get excited. So for me, I look for people who are passionate about music. Another person that was very influential in my career was Julie Greenwald, who had been over at Atlantic for a very long time.

She was the first person that I worked for that I saw in really intense situations. And she was just okay being who she was as a woman. She just had a great voice and she'd be like, and now I need to go get a manicure and I'll deal with that as soon as I can. Isn't

And it was hugely influential on me.

Oh, she's incredible.

Diane Warren. She's a force, well tenacious, but I mean, she's a talented creative force, but she's tenacious, but she's a

Yeah. Well, I mean obviously her

Unparalleled, beautiful, unparalleled.

Times? Yeah. I mean at this point, it's almost like if she got one, I mean, she deserves one, but I think I said that to her. I kind of like the story that she doesn't

I mean, the thing about working with Diane, and I've worked with her on a number of things, is that it's the same thing when I was sort of saying intern to president. Right? No detail goes unnoticed. That is the difference.

Yeah.

That's absolutely right. And there's actually a quote, I'm really big into reading quotes to my friends and my family, motivational quotes, things that strike me as being

Well, this is one that I came up recently. I have a bunch, but recently, and they always say that this is attributed to Charles Darwin. They don't really know if that's true or not. I paraphrase. But it's something along the lines of whoever survives. It's not about being the most intelligent or the strongest. It's the most adaptable. And I think that is very true for Hollywood and entertainment. And I really see that in Diane because she's obviously very smart and very strong.

Well, also, it's like you're in entertainment. People are shocked that things change. And if that was the case that things were stagnant, we would still have silent movies. Everything about what we do is change always.

Yeah. And I look at it like exactly what you just said. I'm like, if you sort of boil it down to the essence, at no time are people never going to listen to music and have entertainment, visual entertainment. It's always going to be

Yeah.

Sunflower?

Into the spider verse, the first spider verse.

Yes.

It's not that it's a directive, it's just what you innately know, a story about a teenager from Brooklyn needs. It's just something that helps.

And sung in the movie

Yeah.

I was working with the record label and an incredible executive, Dana Ano, and we were trying to tackle this, what would the sound of Miles Morales be? The lead character in the movie. And there was a huge responsibility, pun intended, with Spider Verse. But this was the first time that Miles was coming to life in a theatrical format. And it's the first time that you had Miles whose African-American and Puerto Rican represented, and what would he be listening to? And he was cool and sweet and all of these wonderful things, truly like a superhero blossoming. And so music, if done well for a film, should remind you of the heart of that story when you're not in front of the film. That's good. That is true. So I don't look at things for marketing. Obviously marketing is hugely important because you're trying to get people into the movie, but I come from a very grounded, organic place of Does that make you feel like Miles?

I try. I think the artist are the artists, but I think I call myself sometimes, I always laugh. I've said this recently, I'm like the Tinder of music.

Yeah,

Swipe. I'm a matchmaker.

I really just stay a fan. I go to shows. I have a lot of

I mean, I go to all kinds. It just depends on what I'm interested in. I'm just trying to think of what I've seen recently. I've seen so many good shows.

Yeah, once in a while. I mean, look, there's not a lot of bands right now. If you look at the history of what bands are on, what's happened in the past decade or so,

Yeah, you're not seeing a lot of bands, which I would like to see more bands.

Probably technology progression is probably part of it. So where I pull music from is a variety of places. There's incredible people who pitch music to me. There's artists that I know that I just talk to. I have an amazing 16-year-old son, Henry, who's a huge music head, and we're always sharing stuff and swapping things. I think that it's no different than anybody out there if you're a seeker, but you're just a fan.

I can do that. I tend to not like to waste time unless I have something to offer them. I don't think artists need to perform for me.

I feel like it's my job to bring opportunity. If I'm doing my job well, I am there fighting for the artists. I think that is the most important drive for me.

Having a feeling and an instinct in getting to realize it. Saying to somebody, I've heard this song, this is really good. I feel it fits it. And people go, yeah, I hear it. And then the world hears it. And there is nothing more addictive than making a movie that globally people love. It is the most a addicting thing, and it is very powerful. And I correlated a lot to being in concerts. Right.

There's energy there. It's the same way that you're in a forest. What a

You're in a forest and there's trees and there's energy. It's like there's energy that cannot be replaced by tech. The natural world has an energy, and when you're in a movie theater and you're laughing or you're scared or you're crying and it ends with us, I weep out of beauty and grace and sadness. I weep in that movie. There's nothing that can replace you being around a group of humans experiencing that. And the same as in a concert. You can see something online, but it's never going to be the same as when you're singing along in a concert with other human beings. You cannot replace that. And I say a lot, the movie Going experience to me, I use this analogy, people have heard me say it, but I really believe it is. Theatricality is a lot like vinyl. It's something tangible. Vinyl's been around. It's an old model. It's been around forever, yet it's still here. It's still thriving because you can touch it and you can share it.

I have it. I listen to vinyl every day.

Yeah. I buy vinyl all the time.

I have glass animals, vinyl and Metro and Adele. And I mean, I

It. Tons of it.

Just that music comes. Lastly, you try to get it in earlier, but you have this huge machine of a movie and music is always the icing on the, it can be part of the DNA. Absolutely.

I just think it's innately the part of the process that there's too many other things. It is part of the DNA, and we do things early and we try to be very,

Yeah, there's just deadlines. So the music world does not operate by the deadlines unless you're a composer. But I'm talking about artists. They do not operate by the deadlines that a film this giant beast of a movie does.

The artist that's unsigned that I've helped pay their rent. Oh, that is true. You mean that? I mean that

Because people should go into music as a career and those are the people that it has the most impact, obviously. Look, if you're doing soundtracks in general, your life's pretty positive. You're bringing gifts, people, you want to do it. Do you not want to do it? It's

It's just a nice world generally. But when you hear from somebody and go, that use changed things for me, that to me is the best function because it's discovery. And also I would add it's discovery and it's also sustaining that music ecosystem of pick up that guitar, pick up that violin, write that song down, be a poet. But also to me, what I love about it is when you have a major artist, and I love this about a number of songs that I've done, you allow that artist, that's a huge artist that people can kind of put into a lane. They're known for a thing and soundtracks allow them to stretch that. So an artist, a massive artist, can play in something that they didn't get to necessarily do. There's a reason for that to be.

I think we should be rightfully afraid because that's just a healthy dose of any tech.

I actually think AI can be super cool and really interesting, and I think we should have a wariness of it just to make sure that, but I think AI will have its biggest impact. I mean, I think it can be a useful tool. I mean, AI is used in music.

I mean, I think artists would have to kind of tell you specifically, but I think that there's certain kind of sequencing and things that people do and stuff like that,

There's all of that, right? There's all of that. I will remain kind of retro thinking. It's just a philosophy of how I live my life. I will always believe that you can't really replace the human piece. I think that there'll be some bad actors.

But I just think that there's a feel to it, a creativity. So yes, I think AI is an important tool and I think it's here regardless. So we just better get our heads around it.

Be adaptable. But I do think we should have some healthy caution, probably too late for too much caution. But I think ultimately what I chalk it up to is I'm not really afraid and I just don't think you can replace that human energy. I think there's something to it that's intangible that we feel

It's been a treat and it's been very fun chatting with you. And I think what I appreciate so much about what you do and even in this conversation is that you're a treasure hunter. I've seen you at work and you're always trying to pull out the treasure of the storytelling. And I can see doing that on your podcast is you're trying to bring those pearls to light. And that is hopefully a helpful thing to people who want to go into what we do because they should.