Season 02 - Ep 10 - Hannah - Full
Last modified 4:48 PM, March 13, 42.48 MB, 30 min.
Hi, I'm Kendell Kelton, and I'm your host today on The Rough Draft, featuring honest conversations with folks from across the creative industry. The Rough Draft explores the creative process, tools, and resources used by some of the best in the business. From journalists to content creators and business leaders, we shed light on what it looks like to break into the industry, make mistakes, collaborate with others, and the essential tools that help us all along the way.
This week I'm excited to be talking with Hannah Williams, the creator and host of the viral online interview series, Salary Transparent Street, where she asks people what they do for work and how much they make. Hannah's goal is to combat discriminatory tendencies in employment, normalize pay transparency, and close pay gaps.
And in two years, her interviews have achieved over a billion views, and her account has gained nearly three million followers across TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. And on today's episode, Hannah is going to tell us the surprising way she became a content creator and the impact Salary Transparent Street has had. Well, hi, Hannah. Thank you for joining. Oh my goodness! I'm so excited to have you on the show. Let's get to it. I want to start with the origin of Salary Transparency Street and why did you decide to interview perfect strangers about their salaries on the road?
I call it my series of unfortunate, but unfortunate events. So the gist of it is I found out that I was underpaid. Before becoming a content creator, I used to be a government contractor. I live in the DC metro area, so government work, very prolific around here. So that was what I did. And I was a data analyst on a contract, and I found out that I was underpaid about $25,000 compared to other people doing the exact same thing I was doing. And I was pretty young in my career.
I graduated college in 2019, so I was still starting out. But really early on I realized how important transparency was because secrecy had already held me back $25,000. I ended up interviewing at another job, and in the interview the recruiter asked me, "What are your salary requirements?" And I was like, I feel like this is the question that got me in this predicament to start with because how am I supposed to guess what your budget is? I have no way of knowing that.
And this ended up playing out in real time very importantly, because I asked the recruiter, I decided to flip it on her and I was like, "What's the budget for this role?" And I had been prepared to ask for about 105,000, that was $15,000 more than I was making, but I still knew I could make 25. I just didn't want to rock the boat. So I was ready to ask for 105. But when I asked her for the budget, she told me it was 115. So I was like, "That sounds great. That's what I'm looking for."
I was grateful for the transparency because it helped me earn not only what I knew I was worth, but $10,000 extra that they weren't going to give me if I had asked for 105. So I realized transparency is really powerful, and how are we supposed to know what we're supposed to make if nobody talks about it? It's a very simple concept. And so I started making videos on my personal account. I started talking about how much I made, and it was getting a lot of traction.
So I just had this idea. I was like, why don't we just go on the street and ask strangers? And if one person sees a video, one video, we didn't plan on making it a whole venture. It was just kind of a hobby to start. And we decided to go to Georgetown in Washington, DC and asked people what they do for a living and how much they make, and posted the same video we filmed that day, that night on our new account with zero followers, like first video on a brand new page, and it went overnight viral. I remember waking up and it had over a million views, and we had 30,000 followers on TikTok. And I'm like, what is happening? This is crazy. And yeah, I mean, long story short, I ended up quitting my job three weeks after that first video. My husband, who was the one who started it with me, he followed me about a month later. And we've been traveling the country, hopefully the world next year, going around and interviewing strangers about what they do and how much they make.
How has the response been as you've continued to nurture these interviews, especially as now you're going to different cities?
I mean, it's been fantastic. We're going on our third year this upcoming April. So I mean, I wouldn't be here today if the feedback wasn't good. Our businesses made over a million dollars last year. We're on track to make the same amount, if not more this year.
Oh my gosh!
So we're doing really good. This is important information that I think a lot of people needed and didn't know was something that it's very simple, but it's helpful for everyone.
So to that point, how has your understanding of pay transparency in the US, how has it evolved since starting this work a few years ago?
Yeah, I mean, when we started less than three years ago, it was still really taboo to talk about how much you made, but now it's normalized and there's a lot of accounts doing the same thing. And I like to think that the ones that are overseas are trying to loosen people up for me when I come, because I've heard that Europeans are a little bit more shy about their pay.
Have you gotten any feedback from brands or from other companies around this work? Have you had any feedback from these companies who maybe weren't as willing, maybe they are now, maybe they're interested in working with you?
I think it's all about culture. All companies are unique. They all have their own culture and management. I think companies that were not willing to be transparent prior to our work are probably still not likely to be transparent today. And at the end of the day, it's a choice. Companies are not... It's not like it was impossible for them to put transparency in their job descriptions before we started our page.
Our page has just made transparency more aware to workers, and now workers are pressuring companies to be more transparent. So I think companies have a lot of work to do with their internal values and their culture and how they approach transparency. I would like to say that it's been really positive, but ultimately, companies are still the gatekeepers of this information.
And since it helps their bottom line to pay people less, there hasn't been a lot of positive movement in that area. But that's the reason that we have pay transparency laws, which I'm really thrilled for the work that we did. We were invited to testify in support of three pay transparency laws in Maryland, Virginia, and the State of DC. DC and Maryland both passed. We were invited to watch the bill get passed and signed in Maryland.
So we've been very involved in legislation efforts as well. The bill in Virginia was vetoed at the last step by our governor, which was no surprise, but it's not dead. So there's still work to be done. And nationwide, there's tons of states that are passing pay transparency legislation January 1st, 2025 and other months down the road in 2025 as well. So there's at least seven new states that are passing pay transparency laws that are going to mandate companies to list transparency in the job description, whether they want to or not.
Can you talk a bit more about that whirlwind and where y'all are seeing yourselves currently in these legislative talks? What is your role? Is it just as a supportive ally? Are you all having any deeper conversations with your legislators or senators, congressmen in the area?
Yeah, I mean, it's an honor, first of all, to be considered to have a seat at the table with these conversations happening.
... to have a seat at the table with these conversations happening. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a politician, so I don't bring that to the table and I'm not asked to bring it. The reason that we are invited to the table is because I have interviewed over 1000 strangers about how much they make, and many of them have told me directly what experiences they're having in the workplace when it comes to transparency and what they'd like to see change in their companies and their work environments.
So I bring a really valuable and unique perspective from the worker side. I represent workers and I represent those that are hoping to be fairly compensated, which is all of us. I think that that's a lot more valuable than knowing what clauses and terms to include in the law. We need to talk to the workers and what they want, not what business owners want or politicians.
So to that end, you'll have grown your business outside of just doing street interviews in the last two years. And so do you mind kind of telling us a bit about how you've done that?
When I found out that I was underpaid and I was doing my market research, one of the issues that I came across in many of the sources that I looked at Glassdoor, Indeed, the big names, is when I looked up senior data analysts in the DC metro area, how much do they make, the answer I got was an aggregated result from probably 20,000 data points that they have. And that average that they gave me didn't tell me anything. It didn't help me at all in my market research. It didn't give me a firm answer, it didn't give me the context that I needed.
And so when we started Salary Transparent Street, I realized not only can we do these interviews, but we can actually solve a really big problem in the market research space and the job board space, and it's by creating a salary database that works for workers and actually helps them. It's a very simple solution how we've done that. So if you go to SalaryTransparentStreet.com, our salary database is live. You can search any job title and get every individual response from everybody who has submitted their salary in our database. You get to see their individual response, which includes, based on what information people have or haven't provided, but at the most you get their years of experience, their education, their industry, their company, their job title, all these really important factors that were missing when I was doing market research that would solve all those gaps today. And you can search through so many different salaries to really make sure that you are finding out whether you are fairly compensated or not.
We're also launching a job board that only lists jobs that include pay, and we filter through them to make sure that it's solid pay, it's not like a zero to 200K range, this terrible job range. So we're building the tools to help workers search for transparent jobs, but find the information they need to be fairly compensated.
Well, I think this is just so fascinating because people think that if you say that you kind of had your break on TikTok or as a content creator, there's probably this stereotype of what you are doing, but then there are individuals who are actually providing real change and real solutions to problems and challenges. And I just think that that's really commendable, and also a good insight into this world where not everything is what you may think it might be.
Yeah.
So I want to talk about y'all's creative process, but first I want to talk about your background in data analytics. Does that inform the way you approach creating content at all about salaries?
No, it is basically a learning curve that I had to go through. I was really lucky that the last contract I worked on was data analytics in social media. So there's a lot analytically that I was able to carry over and analyze my data and check what's working and not. But in terms of the creative process, oh man, there was a steep learning curve. But I think a lot of my passion that I hadn't recognized... Because I never saw myself as an artist, like a traditional creator. I can't draw, I can't paint. I never thought I was a creative. But I love content and I love seeing how it comes together. And I actually realized when we started filming, I love editing. I love putting the pieces together. And so it was kind of this passion that I discovered about myself that I had no clue was there.
So a lot of people would discount the data analyst as not a creative, but I've actually learned that the passion was kind of there all along and I found my dream job by doing this.
So are there any kind of, I don't know, tips or processes that you've started to rely on? Either you learned about through this learning curve or you just kind of adopted and it's just like, "This is what works for me." I'd love for you to kind of walk us through your process.
Yeah, I didn't do too much research, because honestly, I didn't find a lot of good information out there when I started on how to edit and how to be a content creator. There's not really a bible for that. But I just started, it's that simple. I would spend hours on TikTok naturally. And I just had a curiosity in how the content was filmed, thinking about where was the camera when they shot that frame and where was the position, what did they use? Did they do a special effect on it? That's just something that I was always looking a little closer at and making notes in my phone, literally in my Notes app and being like, "This was a cool frame," and jotting the link and so I could reference it in the future.
But I just started with CapCut. I think that if I had started with a more complex editing system, the Adobes, I would've gotten nowhere because it really is a skill to learn how to use those. It's complex. It's for professionals. But CapCut was very similar to TikTok and it is a TikTok created app, I believe, so they are linked. But I think the reason that TikTok is so revolutionary is also because of how they simplify editing, that it's very much like an Instagram story. You put the content up there, you shorten it wherever needed. You add text here, you add a picture here. They just really broke it down to simple steps and simple ways to do it. And that translated to CapCut.
So I just learned how to edit very simply on TikTok with the bare minimum, translated that to CapCut. And there's no frills to what we do. We film on our iPhones with a RØDE mic that connects to the iPhone. So we've got our audio. We've got our visual, you put the frame or the file into CapCut. And all we do is cut it and add text blocks on screen and maybe a cha-ching sound effect. It's not complicated. And I think some people psych themselves out for creating content because they think it's so complicated.
Did your partner have experience in any of this beforehand or was also like, "I'm flying blind too and I'm learning"?
Yep. Flying blind. 100%.
And so for y'all, do you split up? Are you editing? Is he primarily shooting? How do you collaborate on this?
Yeah, it's changed a lot since we started, really just figuring out what our strengths were and what we like to do, what we don't like to do, and building a perfect matchup there. So when we started, he actually was our editor from the get go. And then I think he just didn't like it as much and it started falling off, so I picked up. We got an editor at one point to do it for us. But I think there's something that the creator always has a special-
I think there's something that the creator always has a special connection to their content that a third party can't always translate. Which is hard when you're looking at the same file to say that the work they do isn't as good as the work we do. But there is really a special touch that we felt we were missing. So we decided to continue to do it inside our team, and so I picked it up, so now I edit full time.
That's awesome. So I guess you had mentioned this earlier about your background. You actually were doing data, a analytics for social. And now that you're in it and you're editing and you're creating content, has there anything that you've come across that's been surprising in terms of the intersection of, well, this type of thing worked, but this didn't? How do you track your success? Anything that you think is particularly important for people to think about as they're creating content?
Yeah, I think tracking your content and your analytics is so important. And prior data analysts here, so I know people are going to say, "Of course she would say that." But I do think it's been really integral to our success because I'm in the weeds. I am also looking at all the comments. I read everything. So I'm very type A and very involved.
And I think sometimes creators grow really fast, or they grow after a couple years, but they grow so big that they don't want to be as involved. And I think that's where there's a little bit of misstep because the community is in touch with you, not your manager or your assistant that you hire in the third year. And it's like I was saying earlier, there's that special touch that the creators have. And I think that the connection we have with our community has been so major to our success. And I know that because I'm listening to them, I'm looking at the analytics. Sometimes we try new things and it totally flops, but if you listen to the audience and you give them what they're looking for, most of the time it's successful.
So I track all our videos. I do it old school. I know a lot of people wouldn't do that, but I have a Google sheet and I have all our videos up there, and I manually track every analytic on all our platforms. So we're on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn. And the reason I do that is because I don't trust these third party analytics platforms, because I do the manual metrics, I calculate how many views there are, and I see what the number is. And several times I've found that the manual metrics I'm calculating from the actual platform do not match what the third party platforms have.
Interesting.
And oftentimes it's lower than what I know is actually on the app. So I don't trust it because I don't want to report metrics that are lower than what I know they are to brands. So yeah, it's a hassle, but I feel like I have more trustworthy information and I'm not missing anything than maybe these third party platforms aren't paying attention to.
Well, that's an interesting challenge. My next question was going to be what do you see as the biggest challenges for content creators or the biggest opportunities? And I think that's really interesting, especially as the algorithms just change every two weeks basically on these platforms. What do you think are the biggest challenges right now, but then also the biggest opportunities?
Yeah, challenges? There's so many. I think you pointed out a really good one is that there's a lack of transparency from these social platforms into how they determine their algorithm, the changes. I remember a couple weeks ago, somebody from Meta's team said that they changed the algorithm, but they gave no explanation as to what changed. So as a creator, it's really frustrating because we create content for these platforms and that's how people come back to these platforms, to consume our content, and yet we're treated kind of lesser than contractors. We're not even seen as partners. We're not even seen as colleagues or employees.
I think a great opportunity in that light is I'd love to see more unionization talk for creators. I think that would be really valuable to work together. From what I've seen with interviews with unionized workers, not just in content creation, but in the entertainment industry and trades, unions have been so helpful to give them a voice and a seat at the table with these big organizations they're working with. And I think similarly, we could do something with creators and the platforms that we post on.
Well, I think this is a really great segue into how y'all have evolved your business, as we talked about earlier on. So you've grown your business to include resources that help promote pay transparency. So I want to talk about those a little bit more intimately now. So the biggest resources is a salary database that's on your website. So I want to get into the mechanics of how y'all actually manage it and why you're trying to nurture that database.
So we started building it with this company called Course Studio. They're based in Canada. I think when we started, it was really important to me that we built something from scratch. So I thought it would be more important to build it from scratch and also to own the IP because I have big goals for it. But building it has been a two-year-long process. It's been a work of art, but it's something I'm really passionate about because I think that the resources that are out there right now for workers are just not worker forward. There's always a catch. There's always something. And I wanted to build something that I knew would help me and ultimately would help others as well.
Yeah. As you're collecting the salary information from folks who've obviously very willingly given you it, do you do any type of verification of anything? How does that work on the back end?
Yeah, so we manually approve every salary. So when you submit your salary, it won't show up on the database until it's manually approved. My dream in future iterations of the database is to have an opportunity for people to submit their pay stubs or offer letters so we can put a salary transparency-approved sign next to it, that it's been 100% validated. But other than that, there's no other way that we can actually validate it unless we have that document of proof.
So I go through and I manually check that all the data matches. If I have somebody submit that they are a software engineer and they make 600,000, I usually don't approve it because I have my doubts. And I've interviewed so many people and just have a really good sense of market rates for a bunch of roles that I can usually sense when something is not correct or off. For the most part, everything matches. It seems that people volunteer that information out of good faith.
Are there any specific industries or job categories that you're hoping to get more comprehensive data from that you currently don't have?
Yeah, there's a lot. I think the industries, sadly what we've seen happen is the majority of people that do the interview lean a certain way. And it's because I think there's an issue with people not wanting to get in trouble at work, which is 100% valid, but also cultural reasons and how that differs with age demographics, that younger people are more likely to share their salaries than older generations. And other industries like tech are a lot more transparent than other industries that are more held off like finance. They do not want to talk about how much they make. So ultimate-
They do not want to talk about how much they make. Ultimately, what we've seen is a lot of information we have skews to the younger generation and more entry level. It's not necessarily an industry that I'd more data on, but I would like more data points from higher up, more seniors, more director level.
That's actually a really interesting point because a lot of people, they're like, okay, I know how to get into the front door, but how do I progress? What do I need to do to move forward?
Aside from the street interviews, are you collecting data any other way for this resource that might help people who might be a little bit more concerned about, I don't want them to see my face or know my voice on camera?
Yeah. That's a huge reason we did the salary database was because we would give them that opportunity. And if you go to our salary database, we actually have a lot of senior level people. I think that's the fix, so I'm really glad that we put that into action, because there are so many older generations that I talk to who are like, is this going on TikTok? No. Don't put my face out there.
And just the other day, I was so disappointed. We interviewed a physician who had 10 years of experience, she made $221,000 in Boston, and her interview went out, within two hours, she had emailed me and asked me to take it down because her management had seen it. And oftentimes, I push back. We have everybody we interview, sign a release form, so we have the right to post it, and I can push back and say that I won't, but I'm not in the business of getting people fired, not for the sake of transparency.
I ended up taking it down because it did ruffle a lot of feathers in her management, but it was so disappointing because she was one of those higher executive roles, 10 plus years of experience, and everyone in the comments were saying she was underpaid for $221,000. Yeah. It was a bummer because it was such important information to share, but that's the issue you come across is the higher up they are, the more it ruffles feathers.
Beyond the database, y'all also have scripts and guides for scenarios like accepting a job offer, negotiating a salary, talking about a salary with coworkers. How do you come up with the topics for these?
Yeah, these are some of my favorite offerings. They're very simple. We tell people to do market research, and usually, their next question is, what's that? How do I do that? It was a simple thing. We built them a guide and taught them exactly how to do market research, how many sources they need to look at, the information they need to be gathering, sources we recommend, all of that. We take them step by step.
And then the next part is, after people find out whether they're well-paid or underpaid, and oftentimes, they find out that they're underpaid and they want to get a raise, their next question is, how do I get a raise? We built the salary negotiation guide that helps people negotiate their raise, whether it's at their current company or negotiating at a new role. We provide scripts, all of that, and it's a hundred percent free.
I felt that providing these free resources is just delivering on our mission to help workers learn and earn more. I make my money from brand partnerships. I don't have to worry about charging my community, and I think they respect that.
I think that's an interesting segue into my next question, which is, how has creating this platform changed your own relationship with discussing money and career?
I'm a radical. It's made me very excited about money because I've talked to so many people about it. I know there's so many possibilities and that, a lot of people when they think about money, they get scared.
But I think money is fun. And I think, if a lot of us open our minds to these conversations and just remove knee-jerk reactions, defensiveness, just have an open conversation, I guarantee you you will learn something new and you will walk away from that conversation with a new idea, or inspiration, or a next step.
There's never a negative outcome to talking about pay with others, and it just is a really beautiful thing that I think not just younger generations but older generations are also starting to normalize, and it's helping them earn more too.
I think I already know what it is, based on our conversation, but what is your number one tip for somebody as they're approaching a new job or even renegotiating in their current role?
I have two that are kind of hand in hand. Number one, socially, if you're listening to this and you take anything away from this conversation, go talk about your pay. Please. Go talk to your partner, your family, a loved one, a trusted one, and just have that conversation. Tell them, hey, I watched Salary Transparent Street, and this crazy girl asks people how much they make, and I'm curious if I'm underpaid. Can we talk about it? That's a great way to open the door to the conversation.
The second thing I would say related to your career is do your market research. Market research isn't something that you do once every five years. Your pay and what you should be making could fluctuate as much as two or three times annually, sometimes more. More often than not, you want to do market research at least once or twice a year, but knowing how much you should be making is so important.
You deserve to be well compensated. And if you don't know whether or not you're fairly compensated, you can talk to your manager. It is your manager and HR's role to be able to communicate to you why you are paid what you are. If they can't explain that, then they need to work on their pay structures.
Well, I love that. You're such a cheerleader. I'm feeling very hyped now. I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today. This has been, I think, very insightful and very useful information, not just for somebody entering their career, but then also somebody who's looking to progress it no matter what stage they're at, so thank you so much.
Thank you. This was fun.
Yeah. Before we go, please let our audience know again where to find you.
Yes. We are on all social platforms: TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, you name it, @Salary Transparent Street, and you can check out our salary database and our job board at salarytransparentstreet.com.
Okay. Awesome. We'll have those linked in our show notes. Again, thank you so much for joining us, Hannah.
This was so fun. Thanks for having me.
Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out Rev.com/podcast.
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