Claire McInerny

Claire McInerny (00:00):

... which I guess is a pun because-

Kendell Kelton (00:02):

I was about to say it. You said it and I was like, "That's a great pun."

Claire McInerny (00:06):

That's such a good question because I feel like that was one of the big dances her and I did at first.

Kendell Kelton (00:12):

You have a pandemic, you have elections, you have wars.

Claire McInerny (00:15):

Because you think too much. You're thinking too much if you're trying to craft an email or craft a text.

Kendell Kelton (00:20):

And is that common.

Claire McInerny (00:22):

It's so common.

Kendell Kelton (00:24):

But how do you start that process of creating something so unique?

Claire McInerny (00:29):

I was like, "You got me there."

Kendell Kelton (00:34):

I'm Kendell Kelton, and today I'm your host On the Rough Draft. In this episode, I sit down with Claire McInerney, a former journalist turn podcast producer. Her podcasting credits include the award-winning, Terrible, Thanks for Asking, and It's Going to be Okay. She's the co-creator and producer of Refamulating, a new podcast that celebrates all the different ways to make a family. And prior to podcasting, Claire was a higher education reporter for NPR member stations across Indiana and Texas. And today we discuss navigating career transitions and the podcasting landscape, an industry that's by all accounts, still in its infancy, how to create compelling narratives for audio and the tools and tactics she relies on the most to find inspiration and creativity. All right, here's my conversation with Claire. You just transitioned over the last couple of years from a career in journalism to a career in podcasting, and it came at such a wild intersection of what's going on in the world. You have a pandemic, you have elections, you have wars, you have all sorts of crazy things happening. So I want to hear a little bit about why you decided to make that jump.

Claire McInerny (01:53):

Yeah, going into podcasting was step two, I would say, and step one was realizing I wanted to leave the career I was in, which was news. And I was working in public radio, so I had an audio background. But I was a reporter, so I was writing for online platforms and then making radio stories about the news I was covering. I covered a hurricane once when I was in Texas. I covered the bombings that happened in Austin, talking to people who lost people in that violence. And I wasn't a war report or anything, but those stories, I feel like were enough to make me start to realize, "Oh, this really takes a toll on my spirit." And I looked around and other reporters like that, they are energized by those moments because it allows them ... it's important. And I just realized I had a different temperament. And then COVID started, and it was all of those feelings on steroids, because the second it started, we were in breaking news mode for six weeks.

(02:58):

And I would say that was the first time I felt burned out was in 2020. And just like ... because also, I was a person going through the pandemic. I was stuck at home. I couldn't see my family, I couldn't see my friends. And then what I was doing all day was listening to how other people were struggling with it, how teachers and students and all of that. So at the end of that year, I knew I needed a change, and so I decided, "I'm going to try and freelance. I'm going to go into podcasting." Because I had some honest conversations with myself about, what do I like about my job as a reporter? I like talking to others, I like telling stories, I like learning about the world around me. And I realized I can transition if I get some opportunities. And so freelancing was the way to take a small job, take a small job, and eventually get the experience I needed.

Kendell Kelton (03:44):

So let's talk then a little bit about that approach because a lot of people just think, "Oh, podcast. It's easy. You just grab a mic, you can just do it." But that's not how it goes. Spoiler alert, it's not. So how did you in particular approach those small gigs that led to a larger opportunity?

Claire McInerny (04:12):

Yeah, one of the first gigs I got was a reporting gig, and I remember thinking, "I don't want to report anymore though," but that's what my experience was in. So it was four eight journalism podcast. So I did this ... I want to say it was maybe 40 minute story, and I reported it and got all the tape, and that was good because I knew how to report and I knew how to take interviews and pick tape and all of that stuff. I just needed to figure out how to do it on a bigger scale with more time. And so that was one of my first projects. I worked for a studio that does a lot of educational podcasts. Again, they hired me for my journalism background, bring these writing skills, these research skills, these fact checking skills to these educational podcasts. And that helped me learn the format, how to scale, how to do something longer, pacing.

(05:03):

In journalism, the rule of thumb for me in public radio was a clip from a guest, a clip from someone I interviewed should never exceed 20 seconds because you have a four-minute story, but in podcasting it can be two minutes. So I just learned those things through those first couple jobs. And I do think my experience as a public radio reporter got me those jobs because I couldn't necessarily say, "Here's a podcast I've produced." But in my time in public radio, I did a documentary one year. I worked on some longer form projects with the newsroom, so I wasn't totally new. And I think those educational podcasts helped me cut my teeth a little bit in the format in that first year.

Kendell Kelton (05:46):

You just released a new podcast a few weeks ago, and we'll get into that a little bit later. But I want to point out, I was listening to the episode that launched this week of Refamulating, and I notice in specific parts where you're wanting to elicit a certain emotion, you'll have a backdrop of music. Excuse me. There's a very intentional pause, and those are the things that I don't think people really realize make a podcast so special sometimes are those little tiny things that are happening in the background that somebody like yourself who's in a producer seat, for the most part. Sometimes you host, but for the most part, you're in the producer seat. You have to think about.

Claire McInerny (06:31):

Yeah, when we do interviews, a big role of mine is the host is leading the conversation like you are now, has the questions, and then my video is off, and I am making notes of, "Oh, that's a good anecdote, but they're missing some details," like we all do when we tell stories. Making notes of, "We're going to come back to that and ask very specific questions. When you woke up that day, how were you feeling?" Okay, then the thing happened. So we can build out scenes and narratives around events. That's what I'm listening for. And you're right, they're very subtle. Or saying, "A music cue should go here, or this anecdote would work well as a cold open at the beginning because we don't need a ton of context, but it sets the tone." All of those things are choices that a producer makes that do have big impacts. Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (07:26):

So I think there's a lot of conversations around monetization and how do you make podcasts successful? And there's different versions of success that everyone has, but as I'm scrolling through my Instagram feed or wherever, I'm noticing things like influencers are now jumping on the podcast game, or I'm seeing pretty high placement for celebrities like the Dax Shepards or the Jason Batemans of the world and their podcasts on Spotify. So what is it like navigating that, especially being part of more of an independent shop and an independent producer that may have a different hill to climb in order to gain what many people may seem as typical success for a podcast?

Claire McInerny (08:18):

Totally. And I'll start my answer by saying the podcast industry is still so new. I'm only 33 years old. I've only been a professional for 11 years, 12 years. And in that time it's changed so much. If you compare it to the film industry, the TV industry, they have decades under their belt. So podcasting is still figuring out its business model. So we saw when the medium was becoming really big, five to 10 years ago, networks or radio stations started saying, "We want to produce podcasts." And they would give these massive deals to people-

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:09:04]

Claire McInerny (09:03):

... produce podcasts and they would give these massive deals to people. Like, here's a bunch of cash up front, and the metrics we used were different on the backend. That's all shifted. And one of the things we've learned in the last year, a lot of podcasters, is that the ad model was the main way people were making money. Oh, we could say 100,000 people listen to our episodes, so that's going to translate to-

Kendell Kelton (09:26):

X amount.

Claire McInerny (09:26):

... this deal with HelloFresh or whatever. The more listeners, the more money they're going to give you.

Kendell Kelton (09:32):

By the way, HelloFresh and BetterHelp are all over my ads.

Claire McInerny (09:37):

They haven't left.

Kendell Kelton (09:38):

They haven't left. They're still there. They've been there for a while.

Claire McInerny (09:42):

The mattresses came and went, but HelloFresh and BetterHelp are still in every mid-roll break.

Kendell Kelton (09:47):

There you go.

Claire McInerny (09:47):

But now, the platforms like Apple Podcasts, which is the main one, most people still listen on Apple Podcasts, has changed their metrics. And it's very hard to get data now. And so we are left with this one number, which is downloads. How often do you download a podcast?

Kendell Kelton (10:04):

Yeah,

Claire McInerny (10:04):

When you go on a flight or on a road trip, most people aren't downloading just to listen. At home, they're hitting play. So it's an imperfect metric, but that's what we have now. And so when Apple Podcasts changed that, the monetization changed. Brands were like, "Well, it doesn't look like there's as many people or we're going to be a little more frugal because we're in a recession." Just the market changed.

(10:25):

And so when I started my podcast with my partner six months ago, we actually had two incredible opportunities in front of us. We had Feelings & Co, the small independent network that I had been doing some work for as a producer, so I had a relationship with them. They were interested. We also talked to a very big network that everybody knows. And it was very interesting to see the things they both put on the table. So the big network, they didn't offer us a deal, we just had some meetings. But it was interesting to get more info. And the deal would've been something like they would take 50% of any ads we sold. They would take 50% of any live show revenue if we ever did that. They would take 50% of any merch we sold. And they would have-

Kendell Kelton (11:15):

Interesting. 50% seems like a lot. Is that a lot?

Claire McInerny (11:18):

It's a ton. It's so much.

Kendell Kelton (11:19):

It feels like a lot.

Claire McInerny (11:20):

It's a lot.

Kendell Kelton (11:21):

That's a lot.

Claire McInerny (11:21):

It's so much.

Kendell Kelton (11:23):

And is that common?

Claire McInerny (11:25):

It's so common.

Kendell Kelton (11:27):

Interesting.

Claire McInerny (11:29):

And they would own the IP, the intellectual property. And so that was the thing that kind of threw us being like, they would put us in front of a lot of people, they would use their other big shows to promote us if they gave us a deal, which again, they didn't, but we just started to think, "How seriously do I want to take this?"

(11:47):

Feelings & Co gave us a very different deal because they want to use their platform and their network to just lift up other independent creators, not get rich. And so the profit share is a fraction of that. They let us do editorially whatever we want. And we have contracts, but whenever we walk away, if we choose to do that, we retain the intellectual property. Because what could happen at a bigger network if they own your IP is the show could blow up, people could love it. But if they don't get along with a host, they could fire the host one day and say, we're going to bring someone else in to host the show that we conceived of.

(12:25):

So for us, we chose to go the independent route because it didn't mean as much money or exposure upfront, but it meant we could control the process forever.

Kendell Kelton (12:35):

Yeah.

Claire McInerny (12:36):

And so we're in a moment now of, okay, our show is out. It's called Refamulating. It's narrative storytelling about different ways people are making a family. And we're taking it upon ourselves to try and build the audience, get a loyal group of listeners because, and you probably see this all the time too, the way independent creators, whether it's podcasting or other video or anything, the way to make money now is through a subscription network. And not that it's a ton of money, but the Patreons, the Substacks of the world allow you to create whatever you want to create without the red tape of big companies and the people who like your stuff just directly support it. It's like the public radio model that existed for a million years.

(13:25):

And so that's what I think a lot of independent people are trying to rely on. Like, I'm going to make a product that people are very loyal to and feel so connected to that they're willing to give $5 a month. And I think that's where shows ours that have a very niche focus and aren't just two influencers chatting could thrive, because we're trying to tap into a specific audience.

Kendell Kelton (13:49):

Well, this is actually a great transition into the idea of defining the story. And so maybe you can talk to me a bit about Refamulating. I think it's a really interesting topic. Y'all have an interesting name for a show that y'all actually made up, which I love.

Claire McInerny (14:08):

Yes.

Kendell Kelton (14:08):

But how do you start that process, like creating something so unique and so specific?

Claire McInerny (14:17):

Yeah, my partner, Julia Winston, who's the host, conceived of the idea, which I guess is a pun because-

Kendell Kelton (14:24):

I was about to say it, you said it. And I was like, "That's a great pun for those who are about to learn what Refamulating is."

Claire McInerny (14:33):

Because when she was 37, 38, a gay couple she was friendly with asked her to donate her eggs so they could have kids. And she said yes and did it. And they had twins this year.

Kendell Kelton (14:47):

Oh, wow.

Claire McInerny (14:49):

Yeah. And so she became what they call a fairy godmother. She's a known egg donor and she's going to be in their life as a friend.

Kendell Kelton (14:57):

Yeah.

Claire McInerny (14:58):

And it was just such a spiritual experience for her. She talks about she doesn't have children of her own, she's not married. She had a lot of feelings around those two realities. And she said it took a pressure valve off of her. She helped someone else start a family. So she was writing a lot about this, recording a lot. She had all these voice memos when she was doing the egg retrievals and hormonal and stuff. And she realized, I want to make a podcast because I want to talk to other people who have been through this kind of experience, because no one in her life was an egg donor, a sperm donor. She felt like she didn't have other people to talk to.

(15:31):

And so she came up with the idea, but she doesn't have a podcasting background. She doesn't work in media. And so we got connected because I had just gone freelance. And so we worked together to create the show, create the name, like you said. After a while, it was like, I feel like semantics became a huge theme we talked about a lot. There's not a lot of words for people in your life outside of mom, dad, aunt, uncle, friend. And I was like, we decided I think we need to make a new word. Even though many people have gone through this experience, we don't have a name for it. We came up with that.

(16:08):

We talked about format for a while. Do we just want to do it as an interview? At the time, I was working on a very narrative storytelling based show and saw how it can make the audience feel much closer to the story and topic, and build a lot of empathy. And we decided, even though it's more work, we'd rather go with that format to really get to know a family. And so that's why we're hoping to build community through this. Because we've already heard from many people who are like, "Oh my God, I feel like you're telling my family story. This is very, very helpful to not just feel like we failed at it."

(16:46):

So yeah, that's kind of our goal is to build community. And that was always our goal. And so when we talk about monetizing one day, it is centered around building a community of people who are either in this position or want to learn more about these topics, versus a live show where we're entertaining because that's not our goal. So those were some of the big picture conversations we had as we got started.

Kendell Kelton (17:12):

Well, and I love the premise of the show because I think family dynamics are so different.

Claire McInerny (17:20):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (17:21):

And podcasts are a great way to connect and build community. So the host, Julia, and you've collaborated with other hosts on other podcasts before, but how do you take something that's so special and so uniquely them, and capturing their voice and their perspective, but also ensuring that your own kind of approach to storytelling is represented in your work?

Claire McInerny (17:51):

That's such a good question, because I feel like that was one of the big dances. Her and I did it first. So the first two episodes in the show are about her experience. And then we move on and we talk to guests.

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:18:04]

Claire McInerny (18:03):

... show or about her experience. And then we move on and we talk to guests and other people, but we wanted to establish why she's the host, why she is passionate about this. And like I said, she's not a writer or a professional storyteller or anything. And so when I did those interviews with her and had all that tape, I took the first pass at writing these scripts and telling her story, which was very intimidating because there were conversations where there were times she was like, "Oh, but you keep forgetting to put in this one detail." And I finally had to be like, "I know it was very important when you lived it, but it's a little bit of a distraction in the story." We had to have some of those conversations of, "This is why I keep cutting this whole anecdote about X because it's kind of a pivot, and I know it was really important to you." Because she's so emotionally tied to it.

(18:58):

And I think when she heard the full thing and we've done scripts together, now she understands. But that first episode we worked on was her story. And so it took so much longer because one, we were just figuring out our workflow together, but it was also, we wanted to get it right. She wanted to feel right about it. I wanted to feel right about it. And the thing I had to tell myself was just listen to her constantly, hear how she talks, because if I send her a Google Doc, most of us, when you look at a blank page, the way you write might not be how you speak. And often what I'll do is we'll be on a call and I'll be like, "You don't even look at the script right now, just start talking to me." And I'm taking notes. Or with Julia, I'll often send her text messages and be like, "Can you send me a voice memo where you answer all these questions later?" And then I can write a scene or give her the draft of the opening of an episode.

Kendell Kelton (19:57):

I love that.

Claire McInerny (19:57):

Yeah. And that way I can use exact phrases she uses or words that she would use, and then she can later truly make it sound like her voice. But I give her a really good starting place because I've learned a blank page is the most intimidating thing for other people. So if I can give her something to start with, with the narration that sounds like her. She's just making smaller tweaks. And I found that works really well, the voice memos, especially because I can actually hear where she's getting excited or how she is phrasing it or things like that.

Kendell Kelton (20:28):

Yeah. Where otherwise you wouldn't quite get that if she just wrote it back to you in a text message.

Claire McInerny (20:33):

Yes.

Kendell Kelton (20:33):

I love that idea.

Claire McInerny (20:34):

Because you think too much, you're thinking too much if you're trying to craft an email or craft a text.

Kendell Kelton (20:39):

Oh, I love that. And these are the things that people don't realize that are going into the producer's role of, "Hear you. Yes. I want to make sure that your story comes through. And I have to think about the bigger picture and what we're trying to achieve here and how do we pull other people into this story as well." I have to wonder if some of your, going back to your higher ed reporting days, if you're seeing a lot of those dynamics taking place and pulling that into your storytelling as well.

Claire McInerny (21:10):

Yeah. I mean, as a reporter, you're observing a lot, you're not talking. I would sit in rooms and be recording. I'd be sitting in rooms observing, waiting to go talk to someone after. And so it definitely set me up for that of, I'm always thinking about the big picture while also noticing details, details around me.

Kendell Kelton (21:29):

Small things.

Claire McInerny (21:31):

And I think that translated very easily into podcasting.

Kendell Kelton (21:35):

So then lets talk about, I love the trick about the voice memo. There's been a lot of change just in terms of technology in the last few years. I mean, even just thinking about how to distribute a podcast, how to measure a podcast, there's all sorts of tools out there. So in what ways has that helped your storytelling capabilities or increased your ability to tell better stories?

Claire McInerny (22:07):

So many things. I think one of the biggest ones is being able to do so much remotely. I think in podcasting, if we're talking about buying equipment, it's one of the lesser expensive things because you can get a USB mic that plugs into your laptop for under $200 and a pair of headphones for $50. And then you could do interviews all day long and not sound like you're in a cave. I think that's opened up a lot in terms of reaching people because the way this used to happen is you either had to get your guests to a studio or you paid a freelancer like me to go to their house, hold a microphone up to them while you did an interview with them on the phone.

(22:51):

And that still happens. But I just appreciate being able to do interviews online. Things like voice memos, things like headphones with a mic. It's not the worst sound in the world. So we can do this in an accessible way and talk to people all over the world. So that's a huge on. Like I said, I haven't been in this industry for very long, but when I started working in public radio 11, 12 years ago, I hand transcribed every single interview I did, which was the worst. You write a sentence, you go back and listen. You're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." It took hours and hours and hours. So now we don't have to do that. I can just put my audio file and it transcribes, and I can make it perfect later once I've chosen what tape. But that also helps with working with hosts or producers or companies who don't do podcasting all the time and hire me to work.

(23:49):

It's like here I put the tape into the platform, now you go through and tell me which parts you like. And so that technology is huge and saves so much time. And I think also just like social media, there's good and there's bad. But I think social media, the good side is it does help people find niche content, and it helps content creators like us find our niche audience. But for Refamulating, one of the areas we decided to spend money on when we don't have a lot right now is on someone to do social media. And she's making Reels and TikToks because we're like, we know there are so many people out here who will connect to these episodes, but they have to know they exist. And so that's a way to reach strangers and also people in our life are spreading it word of mouth. So I think all of these things, there are huge pros, especially compared to 10 years ago, what the audio industry looked like. It took so much longer.

Kendell Kelton (24:51):

Where do you find the most inspiration for your work? So you've picked up a lot of good habits along the way, but how do you keep yourself excited and thinking a little bit differently about how to approach a story or just getting jazzed?

Claire McInerny (25:09):

I think anything that is telling a story, that is using writing or storytelling to articulate an idea I can find inspiration from. But then I also, I'm a huge reality TV viewer, again because it's so different from what I do all day. It feels like a break. And even, I would say what surprised me is I get a lot of ideas from there because they're doing the same thing. They're taking a real, quote, "real life moment". People set it on a mic, it's not a script, and they're figuring out how to tell a story. And so things like the finale of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, if you know you know. They were playing with time, they were like, "It's 7:00 AM." Or we started the episode, "It's 2:00 PM and Heather's losing her mind." And then it was like... and that whole kind of editing moment of they played with time throughout the day to build the drama. I was like, "You got me there."

Kendell Kelton (26:08):

It's great.

Claire McInerny (26:09):

I was screaming from my couch.

Kendell Kelton (26:10):

So many people were screaming.

Claire McInerny (26:13):

Versus just letting that whole scene play out, it would've been dramatic enough. But the way they built it up, I remember thinking, "Oh, I love that. I love that the editors were playing with time and pushing us back in time and playing with our emotions in that way." So I think things like that, editing. I often too, my partner and I watch some Bravo shows together. He'll watch Below Deck with me, the yachting one, and he'll sometimes say, "I feel like they're being so dramatic in their interview." And I'm like, "No. The producer asks them a question that said..." They didn't say, "Was this particular docking of the yacht going to be very dangerous?" They didn't say that. They said, "In general, what are you worried about when you're docking a yacht?" And that's why the captain said, "We could hit the wall. We could hit blah, blah, blah." I was like, "It's all about how they phrase the question." So those are the things I'll start-

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]

Claire McInerny (27:03):

Blah, blah, blah. I was like, it's all about how they phrase the question. And so those are the things I'll start to notice watching that show. And there's ethical ways and unethical ways to cut together someone's real life. But that moment of, "Oh, we could punch up the drama a little bit here. This was a tense moment. Let's make sure that comes through," things like that come with taking someone's quote and breaking it up through narration. So the narrator's being like, "And then this happened," you hear from the guest and then this, and it feels fast. There's ways to play with a real source material.

Kendell Kelton (27:33):

Yeah. But again, this goes back to that... the backbone of these shows really fall on a producer and people think about the director or they think about Heather-

Claire McInerny (27:47):

The star.

Kendell Kelton (27:47):

The star.

Claire McInerny (27:48):

The face you see, yes.

Kendell Kelton (27:49):

The face you see, but they don't really think about the glue that's holding everything together, but yet it feels a little bit like a thinkless job. And so I wonder how you approach maybe not getting the public credit that otherwise, whomever it may be actually receive. Would love to kind of hear your feelings on that.

Claire McInerny (28:16):

I have a lot of feelings on that. My previous career, I was a public radio reporter and every time I did a story, I ended with, "For blank blank news, I'm Claire McInerny." My name was so attached to the work I was doing that then when I was in the bubble of the world I covered, people were like, "Oh, you're Claire McInerny. I hear you on the radio all the time." And that I loved that.

(28:42):

I'll just be honest. I loved that.

Kendell Kelton (28:43):

There you go.

Claire McInerny (28:43):

I liked being like, "I'm getting the credit for all this work I've done." But some producers are people who are like, "I never want to be on camera on air. I forget that I exist. I just want to do my thing." And that's not me. I'm not a shy, introverted person. And so that can be a struggle sometimes. And when Julie and I... when Julie and I were launching Refamulating and having initial conversations about us being partners, which isn't how we started, one of the things I said was, "I enjoy talking to people. I enjoy being on the mic. That's not something I am adverse to."

Kendell Kelton (29:27):

Got it.

Claire McInerny (29:27):

And so as we go forward, if there are moments where it makes sense for me to be included, I'd love to at least bat that idea around.

Kendell Kelton (29:38):

Yeah.

Claire McInerny (29:39):

As the producer, I'll still make the choice of like, "This is gratuitous, Claire. You don't need to be in here," but I wanted that option. And a big conversation her and I had was around our titles, but one of the things I said was, "Could we call me a co-creator of the show?" And that was something that we both sat on for a while because for her, this is a show based on my personal experience, I conceived of it. I have to stop saying conceived. I came up with the idea on my own, and I totally heard that too.

Kendell Kelton (30:20):

Yeah.

Claire McInerny (30:20):

And I was like, "For me, this is now something I'm not getting paid to do, but I think it's so important and I want it out there in the world. I am bringing all this experience into storytelling to it. I don't think the show would exist in this format without me." You would still have a show for sure if you would've found a different producer, but that's why this is important to me. And to her credit, she came back and she was like, "Okay, I'm down. I'm the host and co-creator and you're the producer and co-creator." So it's clear what we're both bringing to the table, but we did both do this. And that meant a lot to me. I am not in every episode. I'm not the host. You hear my name at the end. But the fact that she was willing to give that to me meant a lot. It just made me feel like I have more agency as we're trying to grow and create something on our own. It helped me be like, "Yeah, I am an important role in this project." So it worked for us. But I think being honest about that, having that kind of title and way to introduce myself as we talk about this helped me feel like I was getting the credit from the person it mattered, like the person I was working with as we go out in the world. And it also gave me agency to be like, "This is my show too." When I'm meeting someone, I'm like, "Yeah, I have a podcast. You should listen to it," not just like, "That's a thing I work on." And it helped me feel for sure more invested in its success.

Kendell Kelton (31:50):

I love it. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. I think this gives folks, especially those who are navigating podcasting and just creating some type of content that they want to share with the world, a better peek into what is happening a bit behind the scenes and some good nuggets. So I appreciate you coming on and chatting with us. I do want you to tell folks where they can check out your work.

Claire McInerny (32:18):

Yeah. So Refamulating is the big project I excited about right now. And so you can find that wherever you get podcasts. We spell it R-E-F-A-M- U-L-A-T-I-N-G. You can follow me on Instagram. My handle is CMcInerney. I feel like that's where I spend the most time. But then I'm also on LinkedIn and post a lot of my projects there and write about them there. And yeah, those are the main things I spend time on.

Kendell Kelton (32:50):

Amazing. Well, thank you for coming on. Really appreciate all of your words of wisdom that you shared. And we'll talk soon.

Claire McInerny (32:58):

This is so fun. Thanks.

Kendell Kelton (32:59):

Thanks.

Speaker 1 (33:01):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out rev.com/podcast. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to rate and subscribe in order to say date with the latest episodes. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft.

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [00:33:23]

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