Elissa Nadworny

Elissa Nadworny (00:00):

And I can use my mic and go live to 14 million people on Morning Edition from the side of the road crossing into Ukraine.

Kendell Kelton (00:08):

I can feel the tears welping behind my eyes.

Elissa Nadworny (00:10):

That evening when we were in Kharkiv, there was a large missile attack and a kindergarten was hit.

Kendell Kelton (00:16):

How you approach finding these remarkably human stories in the middle of complete chaos.

Elissa Nadworny (00:24):

And I think that's really worth acknowledging and thinking about with journalists, especially.

Kendell Kelton (00:33):

I'm Kendell Kelton, and today I'm your host on the rough draft. In this episode, I sit down with Elissa Nadworny, an NPR correspondent who frequently reports on international conflict with a focus on children and families. She has spent several months in Ukraine covering the war with Russia, and most recently in Israel, covering the war with Hamas and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Elissa also guest hosts acclaimed radio shows such as All Things Considered, and Weekend Edition. Today, we discuss how to lean into the vulnerable side of storytelling, navigating desensitization in media, and how technology has impacted her reporting on the ground. Elissa also shares insights on collaborating with unique creative partners and adapting to the fast-paced nature of modern content production. All right, here's my conversation with Elissa. So Elissa, you have spent quite a bit of time these past few years covering war and humanitarian efforts on the ground in both Ukraine and Gaza, and so many of your stories are focused on those most vulnerable, so families, children, mothers. And I want to start by discussing how you approach finding these remarkably human stories in the middle of complete chaos. And perhaps specifically, we can start with a story that you published last spring about two young kindergartners in Kharkiv. How did you come across that story? And what motivated you to pursue it, which I understand took several months.

Elissa Nadworny (02:15):

Well, I'll start with yeah, where it happened. So I was covering Ukraine and the war with Russia, and I was doing news stories, so they're kind of quick turns. You're like, this is happening today, this is happening tomorrow. You're doing daily stories and with all the daily stories, I'm trying to be in the field as much as possible because real people, the news is happening to them. So even if it's a quick kind of news hit, I'm still trying to spend as much time with real people as possible.

(02:46):

So we were in Kharkiv, we were actually there for a different story. The start of school was approaching, so I knew that I was going to have to do something on this beginning of school. And that evening when we were in Kharkiv, there was a large missile attack and kindergarten was hit. And so the next morning we went to basically the aftermath where people were cleaning up. There had been two teacher's aides that were taking out the trash and were badly hurt when artillery hit, damaging the kindergarten.

(03:22):

And so it was a perfect illustration of why schools in Ukraine weren't starting in person because this threat was very real and if there had been students there, it could have been a much worse story. So we went and we visited with the head of school, we saw the damage, we learned about the teacher's aides who were in the hospital, and turned that story around pretty quickly to put it on Morning Edition.

Speaker 1 (03:47):

Ukraine's new school year begins today in the middle of a war. About a fourth of schools will start in person, the rest will attempt the year online. NNR's Elissa Nadworny has the story from a school in Kharkiv.

Elissa Nadworny (04:00):

Kindergarten number 323 sits among a number of residential buildings in the center of Kharkiv, Ukraine's second largest city close to the border with Russia. Instead of students outside, there are city workers cleaning the debris left from Russian shelling.

(04:16):

And it was just kind of the scene of the school and the teacher had said this one thing in that story.

(04:22):

As she walks us out of the school, her eyes drift to a pink toy truck poking out of the rubble. She starts to tear up.

Speaker 2 (04:29):

[foreign language 00:04:30].

Elissa Nadworny (04:29):

It's not the damage to the school that I'm mourning, she says, it's the destruction of childhood. Elissa Nadworny, NPR News, Kharkiv, Ukraine.

(04:43):

And that quote, I mean, that stuck with me. And the other thing that really stuck with me was as we were walking through the school, it was the most beautiful school I'd ever been in. The walls were covered with pastel colors and there's art everywhere from these little five and six year olds, and it was like a time capsule. So I'm a big details person.

Kendell Kelton (05:05):

I can tell in your stories. You do.

Elissa Nadworny (05:08):

I love details.

Kendell Kelton (05:09):

well-

Elissa Nadworny (05:09):

We can talk more about this.

Kendell Kelton (05:11):

Yeah, I mean, but just real quick, in that particular story, which we'll link to in the show notes and I know you're about to get into it, the way you described things with such precise detail on the color in particular, really struck me. So that's just a side note. I noticed that and I want us to dig into it. So apologies for interrupting, but keep going.

Elissa Nadworny (05:29):

Well, no, that's how people see the world, right? When you look at your bedroom, you notice little things. I mean, that's how people experience the world. And so as a journalist when I'm going to find stories, I'm looking at the world that way. So that's what I'm taking down because that's I think, how we all relate to other people, is like these little details.

(05:49):

So we're doing a news story where maybe I don't need that many details, but I'm still compartmentalizing what I'm seeing in this kindergarten, and one of the things right at the entrance of the school was the lunch menu that was for February 24th, which is of course the morning that Russia invaded Ukraine. And so this lunch was never served, students never went to school that day, but I'm visiting eight months after the war has begun, and that menu from February is still hung up on the wall because it was the last day that there were ever kids there. And even in telling you, I get goosebumps thinking about that. Just the way that the world just stopped for these families, for these kids, for these teachers, and I couldn't stop thinking about it.

(06:37):

So we left Kharkiv, I moved on to the next story. I think that at the time there was the threat of a nuclear plant was coming offline, and there was so much news happening in Ukraine, so we just shifted our focus. We moved on to the central city of Dnipro when we started doing reports from there. And in my head, I was just thinking about that menu and thinking about those kids. And I messaged my editor to say, "I can't stop thinking about this kindergarten. Is there something more I can do about it?" And he was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." As many editors who have had to work with me know I have thousands of ideas, not all of them need to be pursued. But he was pretty encouraging, and my team, because I work with, of course, translators and interpreters, and I had a photographer I was traveling with. We went back to Kharkiv and we said, let's find a class. Let's find out what happened to a class. And then that began this eight month journey to eventually get to Daniel and Aurora, who were in the piece that you heard.

Kendell Kelton (07:44):

Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting and I'm glad you mentioned the broader team, because I think a lot of people either who aren't a journalist or are at the beginning of their thinking about a career in journalism, like a student, perhaps, they don't really realize the amount of people you are relying on, especially in those situations. So can you spend some time breaking down what that life is like for a reporter on the ground during an international conflict of this scale? You're operating at a level of speed, while also trying to maintain accuracy, while also trying to maintain authenticity and vulnerability, you're balancing a lot. So would love to hear more about the people you rely on and what that day looks like for you.

Elissa Nadworny (08:34):

Yeah, so my team in Ukraine consisted of a driver, a security guy who was ex-British military. A, we call them maybe a fixer or a local journalist or translator, interpreter, they're kind of all in one. The one that I work with most frequently is named Hanna, and she's amazing. So she's Ukrainian, she's from the city of Dnipro, and so she's doing a lot of talking with-

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:09:04]

Elissa Nadworny (09:03):

And so she's doing a lot of talking with people over Viber or Telegram or WhatsApp in Ukrainian and in Russian. So she's essential. I cannot do my work without her. She's such a wonderful creative partner. And then Claire Harbage was the photographer who I was traveling with. So driver, security, fixer, photographer me. So I'm the one that's holding the microphone, asking the questions, kind of figuring out... I guess team leader in a way. But everybody kind of has a very important role to play, and we're very collaborative. Okay, so the one thing I want to say about reporting in Ukraine is just the experience is all consuming because you're living the story. You're in a war zone. So you're also going to the safe room or the bunker when there are missile attacks. And then as soon as it's clear for you to go talk to people whose homes were hit, you're talking to them. You're living the whole story in the same way that you're reporting on it in many ways, and I loved it.

Kendell Kelton (10:09):

So how do you think that impacted you? You just think that rush and that kind of living in it just made your story telling just that much more powerful because you weren't just on a phone calling from DC from your home and just chatting with a translator over there? You are physically in it, so you feel like that really helped that story telling piece?

Elissa Nadworny (10:30):

100%. 100%, yes. And also just from a creative perspective of just not having any responsibilities of your own life to just I'm working 100%, I'm living the story 100%. I'm mentally there. I'm thinking about the story. I'm writing in my notebook in the back of the car on the way somewhere. From a creative perspective, it was just very rewarding to just be with the work.

Kendell Kelton (10:59):

I personally believe, maybe you agree, maybe you don't, that due to this constant bombardment of content and media, especially when something as extreme as war is happening in the world, that unless you are in it, it's easy to separate from it in a way or get desensitized to it. And so in your experience, especially living on the ground, how do you navigate that? How does it impact your approach, and how do you spark more action, especially for people back in the US as an example?

Elissa Nadworny (11:34):

Okay, so my solution to this, what I think about is I go back to change. What has changed? What stories we heard? What's different now than the way it was two months ago. So I'm always looking for change and difference because I think that helps us pay attention when we maybe haven't before. And then I think details and kind of the similarities that cross culture. So details play a big role here, but I'm thinking of a story that was in the Washington Post, which I just loved by one of my favorite journalists, Lizzie Johnson. She profiled a young teen in an area that had been controlled by Russia in Ukraine, and she used her Strava app. And she would just run every day, run, walk. Her town is essentially deserted. She's one of the only teenagers left, and she's just logging as many miles on her Strava app. And you're like, I know Strava. I log miles. It's just like there's these details that make us so relatable to other people. And I think that's one of the things that I think a lot about in terms of getting desensitized to suffering and the overwhelm of a big story. Details matter, individual stories matter. I want to connect with humans, not with ideas. And then what are the similarities that just we're all experiencing? I felt like especially the story about the moms in Gaza, it was like what are the challenges around a diaper that fits, or getting food? What are the daily live things that people in the US relate to regardless of what's going on in their lives?

Kendell Kelton (13:23):

Well, I have a four-year-old son. And listening in particular to the piece you did on Gaza and those pregnant mothers and the camps, and then I think the diaper was just so many sizes too small, and I was like, oh my gosh. That hit my heart so hard. That's the only thing you have, and the baby's uncomfortable, and the mom's doing everything she can. I was just like, oof. I can feel the tears well being behind my eyes because I've been there, but I've also had access to fixing that somewhat quickly. And not imagining not having those resources, it just is a gut punch. And I can only imagine that as a reporter, navigating that balance between caring for the individuals you cover, that vulnerability, and also achieving the story's objectives, you're on the clock and you're trying to kind of express what's happening in the world, that has to be so tough. That has to be draining.

Elissa Nadworny (14:28):

Yeah, it is really draining. I think empathy and connection are my super power. That's what makes my stories good, but I think it does have a personal cost in kind of holding everyone's story and holding people's sorrow and their joy. And just kind of the emotional bandwidth that I'm capable of experiencing, it has expanded, but it does have its limits, and I think that's really worth acknowledging and thinking about with journalists especially. I have a therapist who helps me a lot process what all this means and that it's okay to kind of be overwhelmed by emotion on a daily basis.

Kendell Kelton (15:08):

Literally, I can only imagine.

Elissa Nadworny (15:09):

But it's also wonderful. I don't want to make it seem so... I couldn't do my job without it, without that swell of love that I feel.

Kendell Kelton (15:18):

Well, no. And so that's actually a great lead in because I guess I'm wondering how... Understanding, you have a higher ed background in your reporting, what was it that attracted you to those type of stories? Was it just this innate, you've always had that empathetic feeling, or what kind of attracted you to pursuing that?

Elissa Nadworny (15:37):

It's funny because I actually haven't done a lot of deep reflection on this because I think finding those people come so naturally to me. I'm a woman. I'm in my 30s. I see friends around me having families. I think it's not a cop out of an answer, but I think it's just like that's where kind of your identity comes into play, and those are the stories I look for because those are the stories I care about.

Kendell Kelton (16:12):

No, I don't think it's a cop out at all to say that. I think it is just one of those, you have... People follow certain beats, and I've always been kind of interested of what attracted you to pursuing this and leaning into it.

Elissa Nadworny (16:25):

Well, I'll say that I started education because education touches everything. That was a beat when I was coming up to be a journalist, where I was like, I love so many things. I'm interested in so many different ideas, housing and families and economics, and all these things. And it's like, oh, well, they all touch education. Education is where it starts. The basis of being an education reporter and thinking about stories holistically and being human centered, it almost doesn't matter, the topic now. That foundation in youth and families, I think is just going to permeate everything.

Kendell Kelton (17:01):

I think that's really beautiful, and it's a good reminder that you don't have to fit into one particular box.

Elissa Nadworny (17:07):

And isn't it great for storytelling purposes too? I wish people mixed up what they did. I think it brings such a great perspective and change. Change your medium. Change what you cover. Change your topics.

Kendell Kelton (17:20):

Right.

Elissa Nadworny (17:20):

The thing that's consistent is you and kind of your creative ideas, but change, I think, is so good, and we do not do it enough. And we don't trust that people can do it enough. We're kind of obsessed with this idea, like oh, well, you haven't already done it. It's like, yeah, so what?

Kendell Kelton (17:36):

And it feels scary and overwhelming, but it's so interesting because the way people absorb content and just the way you tell maybe one particular story... I'll take the kindergartner class, for example. If you go to NPR's website, if you were to listen to that story, you will hear one thing on the audio, but then if you read everything underneath it, it's slightly different. So you're getting different perspectives depending on if you're reading or listening or whatever it may be.

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:18:04]

Kendell Kelton (18:03):

... On if you're reading or listening or whatever it may be. And there's just so much content out there, and so, you have to maintain that flexibility. So have you felt that the last few years? Because I think that's also run in tandem with everything else that's happening in the world.

Elissa Nadworny (18:18):

Yeah. Oh, this proliferation of do it on every platform and every medium? Totally, but the thing that's kind of fun about that is that there are people who are really good at each one and they have so much to offer you in terms of learning. I'm thinking specifically that digital story of the Ukraine kindergartners. I partnered with someone at NPR named Connie, who is a mastermind of builds, like interactive builds and doing really cool things.

Kendell Kelton (18:49):

Oh, the text, that was beautiful.

Elissa Nadworny (18:51):

Yeah. So this was a major part of the reporting process, which I never thought would be in the final product. But it was basically a group chat that all of these families in the kindergarten just kept in touch with each other and it documented in a primary source document way what had happened to them after the invasion. And Connie built this amazing interactive, you can basically watch it unfold in real time as they text each other online.

Kendell Kelton (19:18):

It's a very beautiful but also very dramatic way to hook people in. I have to imagine, when you're thinking about building these stories, it is such a collaborative and highly intensive creative process. I'm wondering, what have you learned that are your go tos in these type of scenarios where you're trying to...

Elissa Nadworny (19:38):

Yeah, basically, my background is in documentary film, so I'm always thinking of, what is a different way to imagine a documentary? I think of my pieces on NPR as documentaries in their own way. So it's kind of like, is there a version of a documentary that's told in just ways we haven't really explored or thought of? Again, first draft here.

Kendell Kelton (20:01):

Yeah, no, but I'm here for it. I'm here for it. So given that background in documentary film, what are certain things that you think you've been able to kind of pull from that kind of bag of tricks from documentary filmmaking into what you've been able to do both on the ground here in the US, but then, also, on these more international kind of surfaces?

Elissa Nadworny (20:24):

I think the biggest thing I pull from my documentary background is being there, being there with people when something is happening. There's nothing better than scene, whether you're rolling on a camera or you're rolling with your microphone. Just trying to be there when things are happening is the biggest takeaway I have. I want to make it so that they feel comfortable to let me in, so that I get past that first layer that they might tell a news reporter. I want to get a little bit past that and be what they might tell a documentarian, even if I'm turning it for tomorrow for Morning Edition.

Kendell Kelton (21:00):

Well, do you have any tactics specifically that you use, either phrases or words or things to ease people into being more comfortable?

Elissa Nadworny (21:09):

Well, I think listening is a huge part of the interview process that we don't talk enough about, actually listening. You have your questions that you want answered, but listening and responding, I think, is the most essential part of building that trust. Just treating people like they're experts, I think, has always been a really helpful piece of advice.

Kendell Kelton (21:29):

And that translates to all sorts of things.

Elissa Nadworny (21:32):

I think the other thing that I've learned a lot is building people out to be three-dimensional. Often, my favorite piece of tape in a story is not related to the thing the story is about. It's just what I would call color. It's humanizing them. It's making them feel three-dimensional, like they're a real person and not just a talking head. And that feels very much from my documentary request.

Kendell Kelton (21:56):

So I want to spend some time just talking about your specific creative process. Are there tips and tricks or tools that you use that you think would be helpful for others?

Elissa Nadworny (22:08):

I'm thinking about what I want the final product to be from the beginning. Whether or not it ends up like that, that's okay, but thinking in a big picture way when you're actually doing the small scale work, I think, has been really helpful. So imagining where people might go in a story. This is also true when you're doing interviews, when you're collecting tape or scene. I always try and write down the best pieces of tape, the moments that made me laugh, the moments that made me cry, the moments I want to call my mom about.

(22:39):

I try and write those down in a notebook or record a voice memo as soon as the interview or the scene is over. Fresh, fresh, fresh is always best. The other really wonderful thing I like to do is just start writing in a notebook, especially when I'm in that moment of I've done a bunch of reporting and I'm kind of stuck on the structure of the story. I'll just go out in the backyard or go to a park or in the back of a car on the way to Ukraine. It doesn't matter where you are, but just like pen and paper.

Kendell Kelton (23:09):

So you're doing so much running around, you're trying to hit so many different stories on a deadline and you're traveling, you're in and out of cars, you have to pack light, so how are you capturing these stories in order to get them over to the news desk and to get them published? What do you rely on the most?

Elissa Nadworny (23:33):

Well, this was actually the greatest thing from going from the video world to the radio world, because the equipment gets cut down a lot. So yeah, having to lug around a tripod? Nope. Everything is super light and it's wonderful. Okay. So my best friend, in terms of equipment, is a microphone, which I can show you.

Kendell Kelton (23:54):

There you go.

Elissa Nadworny (23:54):

I'm recording from it, but this little guy, Sennheiser shotgun mic, is my baby. Really, it's with me all the time, and it's what mostly I record everything in. It's super lightweight. And I have a small audio recorder and headphones, and that's all I need to make radio magic.

Kendell Kelton (24:13):

It's amazing.

Elissa Nadworny (24:15):

The wild thing is that there's technology, it's called an iRig, which NPR started using during the pandemic, which plugs from our microphone into the iPhone. And honestly, this changed the game of live reporting for us, because I have used this really all over the world. And I can use my mic and go live to 14 million people on Morning Edition from the side of the road crossing into Ukraine, like on the border between Poland and Ukraine. And it fits in a little satchel, and I'm connected all over America, all over the world.

Kendell Kelton (24:52):

That's kind of incredible to see how efficient technology has gotten, but does that also add in pressure to, if you're able to do this so efficiently, so quickly?

Elissa Nadworny (25:05):

I don't see it as pressure. I don't see it as pressure. I see it as ease really, because I think the pressure of still getting on the air fast was there when you had to unplug your Marantz, get your cables, plug it into your computer, drag it to your desktop. I actually feel like this is cutting out the anxiety moments of trying to be fast to get it on the air.

Kendell Kelton (25:31):

You've talked a few times around just your team and how collaboration is key to storytelling, and I even noticed on X the other day that you did a shout out to editors just hearing you out on stories and helping you navigate it. So would love to know how you lean on creative partners and how it enhances your storytelling.

Elissa Nadworny (25:54):

Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad you asked that, because look, we all like to talk about the stuff we're working on. But I actually think that's an essential part of the creative process, and I lean on a lot of the people that I respect and value their opinions on to kind of help shape what things look like and how I think about stories. So these are official editors that get paid to help me, but also informal editors, friends. One of my first friends growing up in Erie, PA, I like to think of her as my first creative collaborator. We wrote a play when we were in sixth grade.

Kendell Kelton (26:29):

Oh my gosh.

Elissa Nadworny (26:29):

She lives in Northern Ireland, she's a playwright. And we talk about creative process all the time, and our mediums are so different and the work we do is so different. But woo, we are on the same page about how to get this stuff done and the pitfalls.

Kendell Kelton (26:44):

Do you think there's some, but I know they're so different, but do you think there's some similarities though at the same time?

Elissa Nadworny (26:50):

Yeah. A hundred percent. All the things we've talked about, details, character development, the pacing of stories, because all those elements are still the same, regardless of if it's fiction or nonfiction or...

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]

Elissa Nadworny (27:03):

Those elements are still the same, regardless of if it's fiction or nonfiction or on the radio or in a play. It's really fun to have... There's no competition or anything. We're making totally different things, and yet our conversations are just hours long and are so productive. She has such thoughtful things to say for the stuff I'm making, and I love giving her feedback on stuff that she's making. There's no stakes because we just trust each other's brains.

Kendell Kelton (27:27):

No, I think that's so interesting because I think it's easy to get caught up in your own thing or your own field or your own to-do list, but breaking out of that and getting that a different perspective or a different lens, I think that's actually quite a good tip to give people, is to trust the feedback of somebody who may not be as in it as you.

Elissa Nadworny (27:49):

Well, and I've often worked with one producer at NPR a lot. Her name is Lauren Migaki. She wasn't always with me in war zones, which is a bummer because she's the best and her brain is incredible. She thinks about stuff differently than I do, so we get to have two brains when we're working together and we know each other so well that it's like, "Okay, she knows I'm going to write the sentence like this." Then when she's thinking about tape, she's like, "This tape is going to be perfect for an Elissaoid sentence."

Kendell Kelton (28:20):

Yeah.

Elissa Nadworny (28:22):

When you get to mesh with somebody like that and you're on the same page and you believe in the same quality of tape, the same quality of story, it's you just got to hold onto them as long as you can.

Kendell Kelton (28:34):

Well, I think that's very beautiful about leaning in, doing things as a team and not operating so much as in silo, because as human beings, we thrive on that connection. I think that probably comes through in your storytelling as well. I'd love to end on a couple of things. One, are some of the lessons you've learned throughout your career and things you wish somebody would've told you back when maybe you were leaving college and entering into this field? Especially given the fact that you work so closely and report on students in particular, what would you like them to understand?

Elissa Nadworny (29:18):

Well, I think no one told me about journalism, and I wish that that had come a little earlier.

Kendell Kelton (29:25):

Oh, interesting.

Elissa Nadworny (29:26):

I always knew I wanted to be a storyteller. I was obsessed with ER when I was in high school, and I was like, "This is what I want to do. I want to make ER-"

Kendell Kelton (29:35):

Yeah, I want to work with George Clooney.

Elissa Nadworny (29:42):

As every teenager in the nineties would. Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (29:43):

Yeah, I want to work with George Clooney, that sounds great.

Elissa Nadworny (29:43):

Speaking of George Clooney, let me just, my friend just got me a signed headshot of Dr. Ross.

Kendell Kelton (29:53):

There he is.

(29:54):

Dr. Ross. Oh my God, I love that.

Elissa Nadworny (29:58):

But yeah, so when I was in high school even, I had my own video production company and I had clients. I would make videos for, like the Erie School District. I grew up in Erie, PA. They were one of my clients. I would make the orientation video that they'd play for students coming in.

Kendell Kelton (30:14):

Oh, my gosh.

Elissa Nadworny (30:15):

I always knew I wanted to make stories, and I was really interested in film and video, and so I went to college for documentary film. But it took a really long time for someone to say, "Actually, I think what you want to do is journalism." Even when I told my dad that I was going to go to grad school for journalism, he was really worried. We didn't know any journalists. We didn't know any reporters. It was not really an industry that felt very accessible.

Kendell Kelton (30:41):

Oh, interesting. Do you think it feels more accessible now?

Elissa Nadworny (30:44):

I think that we're working on it, but I think it still feels like a big city thing. I think it still feels like very elite in many ways, in a way that feels impenetrable. Yeah, I was really surprised. My dad only told me that later, that he was just really nervous about me becoming a journalist because he just didn't know any journalists. He didn't know any reporters.

Kendell Kelton (31:11):

Is there advice you would give somebody who doesn't know any reporters and doesn't really know where to start? Is it just pick up the pen and pick up your recorder and start observing the world?

Elissa Nadworny (31:21):

I think that we tend to feel like we need backing or permission to do the work that we want to do when it comes to journalism, when it comes to writing or storytelling. I felt this when I was younger that I was waiting... As soon as I got a job somewhere, then I was going to do the work I wanted to do.

Kendell Kelton (31:39):

Just do it.

Elissa Nadworny (31:40):

What I wish I told myself was just try and do... Yeah, just try and do it. You don't actually... You don't need permission. You don't need the big names. It's you. You're the thing that's great and going to help make the work great.

Kendell Kelton (31:54):

Well, I think that's a beautiful place to end. I think that and a good reminder for people, especially if they're beginning their career or making a transition. We talked a lot about a few different stories that you have published out into the world. Where can listeners follow you, maybe learn more about some of your reporting? We'll put everything into the show notes, but please let them know where they can check out your work and follow you.

Elissa Nadworny (32:28):

Okay. I've had an on and off newsletter called Brief Stint, which I feel like is very meta because sometimes I send it and sometimes I don't, but I'm going to try and be better about it. That is at Substack, and I'm Elissa Nadworny, my full name and the newsletter's called Brief Stint, so I'll make sure we can link you to that. But I'm on Instagram @ElissaNad and I'm on Twitter, now X, @ElissaNadworny.

Kendell Kelton (32:53):

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you joining us today and sharing some more insights and more color. We've talked about the importance of color, but more color into what it's like on the ground, so I appreciate it.

Elissa Nadworny (33:06):

Thanks for having me.

Kendell Kelton (33:09):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out rev.com/podcast. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to rate and subscribe in order to stay up to date with the latest episodes. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft.

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [00:33:31]

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