Jacob Hamilton

Colton Holmes (00:26):

Today on the rough draft, we sit down with director and cinematographer Jacob Hamilton. With over 20 years in the industry, Jacob is best known for his award-winning directorial debut Jump Shot, and his cinematography can be found in places like the documentary Facing Nolan and more recently in Magnolia Table with Joanna Gaines.

(00:44):

On today's episode, Jacob breaks down what it's like to work on a documentary for over seven years. He explains his process of prepping for interviews and how he finds the right people to contribute to his story. We talk about the unpredictable nature of documentary storytelling, as well as the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people. All right, let's jump into our conversation with Jacob Hamilton.

(01:13):

So you're a director cinematographer. Or I guess cinematographer turned director is-

Jacob Hamilton (01:16):

Yeah. Just starting out, you do everything when you first enter that world of being a filmmaker, and so you wear all the hats, edit, produce, shoot, direct, all those things. [00:01:30] And when I finally had the opportunity to start dabbling in a more concentrated thing, editing and cinematography were what stood out to me. I enjoyed being around and then kept getting a lot of calls for being a cinematographer.

(01:45):

And then when I was out there getting to be a cinematographer, camera operator, DP, there were a lot of instances where I was working with all kinds of different people and I was like, "You know what? I feel like I could do this." [00:02:00] So I started searching for projects that maybe would be something that I could direct, which ultimately ended up leading me to my first feature length documentary.

Colton Holmes (02:11):

Can you tell me about your first feature length documentary?

Jacob Hamilton (02:14):

Yeah. I directed a feature length documentary called Jump Shot, The Kenny Sailors Story. Literally that was the first project that came to mind. I was like, "This is something I want to direct."

(02:29):

Long story short, [00:02:30] I heard a podcast. A friend of mine curated his favorite podcast and would do a podcast about podcasts. It was amazing. He doesn't do it anymore, which is really a bummer, but it was a great way to just hit all the major points throughout the week of like, oh, this is really fascinating. And one of them was this two minute, maybe three minute interview with Kenny Sailors, who at the time was in his late 80s. I heard it and I was like, "This is fascinating." Had no idea that somebody [00:03:00] invented the jump shot. He seemed like this amazing character, and so did a little bit of research, found out he was still alive. He lived in Wyoming and so reached out to him.

(03:14):

One thing led to another. We ended up grabbing breakfast up in Laramie, Wyoming, which is where he lived. I was like, "Hey, I want to tell your story and not just basketball. I want to talk about your life." The more research I did on him, the more [00:03:30] I realized this guy did so much more than just basketball and the jump shot. So I was like, "I think there's a really rich opportunity to tell this story. There's just so much." I always compare it to his story is like Forrest Gump meets Hoosiers meets Into the Wild. It's like those three movies together make Kenny's life story.

Colton Holmes (03:50):

What caught your attention about his story? Are you a sports fan?

Jacob Hamilton (03:53):

I am a sports fan. Sports are an incredible storytelling vessel. [00:04:00] Kenny's case is a David versus Goliath story, because he's 5'7" and played in the NBA, and he created the jump shot out of necessity.

Colton Holmes (04:08):

Which you mentioned earlier about when you had breakfast with him and you realize, oh, this guy's more than just the inventor of the jump shot or even just more than just a basketball player. He's also a mentor. He is also a great husband, a great dad, a great grandfather. He has all these other identities that he excelled at besides just the thing that everyone else wants to focus on. And I think when [00:04:30] I watched Jump Shot, I just really felt that on the second half of the film. And I think this is great storytelling. It was a little bit bait-and-switchy, I guess.

Jacob Hamilton (04:35):

Oh yeah, sure.

Colton Holmes (04:35):

Because it's like-

Jacob Hamilton (04:38):

The hook is basketball. We wait a second. Why are we talking about his wife?

Colton Holmes (04:41):

But I was like, no, this feels like who he is, but I think-

Jacob Hamilton (04:46):

You know what that means? It's like, I think I did my job.

Colton Holmes (04:48):

Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm trying to tell. I think you did a really beautiful job of portraying what I would think Kenny would be like. I even wrote down a quote that Katie said, that I think really sums it up well was if [00:05:00] you take away all the business, all the media, all the hype around the game, and you want to see pure love, look at Kenny Sailors.

Jacob Hamilton (05:05):

Katie nailed it.

Colton Holmes (05:06):

Yeah, it was just a really cool line that I was like, I think this is what I would assume Jacob set out to go and capture.

Jacob Hamilton (05:15):

In that conversation that we had, that first conversation at breakfast, he's like, "Everybody knows the jump shot and that's all they want to talk about, but there's so much more to my life." And I was like, "That's the story I want to tell."

Colton Holmes (05:30):

[00:05:30] What does that look like to pursue someone's story who has no idea who you are and then all of a sudden ... Do you just call him out of the blue? How does that work?

Jacob Hamilton (05:37):

Yeah.

Colton Holmes (05:37):

What's the first step in ...

Jacob Hamilton (05:39):

Every story, just how anybody enters the film industry, it's a different story. Then how we approached him, I had no connection at all to him whatsoever. I think just recently one of Kenny's friends, somebody that managed a lot of his time and helped organize a lot of his archival, had [00:06:00] just built a website. So I saw that and hit him up with an email, and they were like, "Yeah, we'd love to hop on the phone and chat." So first was a phone conversation and then it was, "Hey, I'd like to come up there and visit with you in person and talk about this," just so you can try to build a little bit more trust. So one thing led to another where I don't know if it was the conventional way of going about it, but it worked somehow and he agreed to do it.

(06:29):

I learned maybe along the way there were maybe other people trying to do something.

Colton Holmes (06:34):

Oh, really?

Jacob Hamilton (06:34):

Yeah, a little bit, nothing exact. I knew nobody was going to be doing exactly what I did, but I know ESPN ended up doing a feature with him. That producer actually is in the film talking a little bit about Kenny and his story, too. But there are all these little things. There's like, oh, people are starting to find out this guy is still alive. He invented the jump shot. And I got all nervous that someone was going to boot me out of the process and I wouldn't be able to tell his story, but then became [00:07:00] confident. I was like, I don't think anybody's going to be sharing the story with the same angle that I am. So even if they are telling his story, I think I'm going to be something that's a little bit more unique.

Colton Holmes (07:10):

Were you part of every single interview that is part of the film?

Jacob Hamilton (07:13):

Yep.

Colton Holmes (07:13):

Did you conduct those interviews?

Jacob Hamilton (07:15):

I did, yeah.

Colton Holmes (07:15):

Okay. Can you walk me through? How do you prepare for an interview? What does your process look like?

Jacob Hamilton (07:21):

Yeah. It's understanding who you're interviewing and what their perspective is of the story you're trying to tell. One thing I learned [00:07:30] not soon enough on Jump Shot is every person I would sit down, I would ask everything, because you're so hungry for content. And I would ask historical things to people that probably didn't know any history or really know of certain aspects of Kenny's life. So there was a lot of bloated interviews that we had where I was trying to get people to open up about certain things. They said, "No idea." And so it is just one of those things where [00:08:00] I learned over time doing it and making some mistakes. And you want to focus on, okay, this person, they're going to be able to talk about this specific moment or this specific event or history in here, and I just really need to dive into that, maybe get one or two things that are more broad in general, but not try ... I'm not going to be talking with KD about the evolution of basketball [00:08:30] as much, other than let's talk about comparing his style, Kenny's style, with what's going on today. So it's being just more specific catered to who we're talking with and not trying to get everything out of it.

Colton Holmes (08:43):

How do you go about finding out, "Oh, this person might be an expert on this part of his life. This person might be an expert on this part of his life"?

Jacob Hamilton (08:50):

We broke it down. There's athletes. There are historians. There are people that wrote articles [00:09:00] about Kenny in newspapers or magazines and whatnot, so they could bring a different approach. So you look at all the different players, the key players, and what makes this story. And there are people that knew Kenny personally, and they're people that don't. They've never met him, but they can comment on gameplay, the history and whatnot. So you have to cater each those questions to, okay, who are all these people? How are they somehow related to Kenny or know, can speak on this part [00:09:30] of the story?

Colton Holmes (09:31):

Essentially, you're having to build so many different relationships through the whole process, right?

Jacob Hamilton (09:34):

Yeah.

Colton Holmes (09:34):

Build rapport so that you get the right or the best answer. What is it like building a rapport with someone that might have all these red tape to get to, like I would assume a KD or a Steph Curry? Is that just a whole different ballgame interviewing someone like that?

Jacob Hamilton (09:50):

The great thing that I was reminded of when we were pursuing, trying to get some active players or people that had played recently ... maybe they had just retired ... was that they all have an obligation to speak on behalf of their organization. So whoever they're playing with, that is something that the Warriors encourage players to participate in things like this documentary. So we knew that it wouldn't be a bad thing for that, but there's a gatekeeper to anybody at that level, and they're really hard to get to. I forget the exact number, but when we were reaching out to the SID for the Warriors who was in charge of all of contacts, he's just like, "You're lucky that I saw your email." And it's like, "Wow, that's crazy. I have no idea how that happens, but I'm glad that you did read our email and that we're here today getting to visit with you guys."

(10:44):

So there needs to be some type of personal connection, I think, for it to really solidify. For us with Jump Shot, when we were able to get both KD and Steph, that was through a mutual friend of ours that our executive producer, Mary Beth, she met the chaplain for the US Olympics basketball team. She shared an early version of Jump Shot with him and he's like, "This is amazing. I think I know some guys that would like to see this and maybe participate in it." And he was like, "That is Steph Curry and Kevin Durant. So let me see if I can get this in front of them and work something out." So that's how that came about.

(11:25):

There's multiple layers and steps to get to that point, but eventually it all, ... [00:11:30] We got to do it and it was incredible, and we're so grateful that we were able to get those guys amongst everybody else in our film. We got to visit with Dirk, which was really fun, and the late great Bob Knight. I don't know. It's such a wide variety of people in this, from young and old, that get to reflect upon Kenny's legacy. It's really exciting I hope. It makes a well-rounded story.

Colton Holmes (11:55):

That speaks to the value of having a team help you accomplish those things too, because just having people that are out there batting for you.

(12:04):

You mentioned that she showed him a early version of Jump Shot. What does that mean? Is this a paper cut? Is this a rough, fully fledged rough cut? A short? Or-

Jacob Hamilton (12:14):

Great question. Yeah, this was a full cut, just minus those few characters that we were searching for. We had reached the point where we're like, "Okay, this is a solid film, but we really need some younger voices, some recognizable faces in here." So we were like, "Who are the top shooters of all time?" Kevin and Steph are obviously on that list. The crazy story is that with KD, we actually had an opportunity to go screen the film personally with him.

Colton Holmes (12:48):

Oh, really?

Jacob Hamilton (12:48):

For him to watch it and see if he wanted to be a part of it. So we actually went out to the Bay Area with the chaplain, my two producers, and myself, and we [00:13:00] walked up to KD's house and rang the doorbell. He came and gave us all hugs. He was like, "Let's go." It was just one of the wilder experiences of my life, and he is like, "Let's watch it." We're hanging around outside in his backyard and he's like, "Let's watch this thing." We watched it and I was just waiting for him to start looking around and get bored or something like that, but he was glued to the screen the entire time.

Colton Holmes (13:28):

That's awesome.

Jacob Hamilton (13:30):

[00:13:30] At one point in time he hit pause. He's like, "How do I stop this?" And he's like, "I am doing this exact same thing today, but Kenny was doing this 50, 60 years ago." So it was pretty incredible that he appreciated. You just never know if somebody younger is going to appreciate who has come before them. And KD is one of those guys that ... and Steph, and they're all guys that want to help preserve the history of the game.

Colton Holmes (13:59):

What does that [00:14:00] pressure feel like watching it next to-

Jacob Hamilton (14:01):

Terrifying?

Colton Holmes (14:02):

Yeah, I bet.

Jacob Hamilton (14:02):

Terrifying

Colton Holmes (14:03):

Having someone like that it's like-

Jacob Hamilton (14:04):

We were watching it outside on my laptop and I'm like, surely there's a big TV in here that we could be watching this on. But he just wanted to watch it outside, so it's like there are dogs barking, there's planes flying over. I blew out the speakers to my laptop, I'm pretty sure, that night. My laptop never performed the way it did prior to that.

Colton Holmes (14:25):

That's hilarious.

Jacob Hamilton (14:26):

But it all worked and he agreed to be in the film, and his presence [00:14:30] is absolutely incredible in it.

Colton Holmes (14:31):

Yeah, that's awesome. I've done documentary storytelling on a much, much smaller level, a five-minute story, and even that involves so many interviews, so many hours of prep for those interviews, but then also so many hours of interview footage, plus hours of B-roll, and then for you, plus hours of archival footage. Do you have any idea of how much volume of interviews or all of that stuff there was to sort through?

Jacob Hamilton (15:00):

I meant to look this up before I came in, but I want to say we probably had somewhere around 30 maybe or 40 interviews, and we only used maybe half. A lot of people didn't just make it in there for whatever reason. And then the archival side of things, thankfully Kenny's wife saved everything, newspaper clippings, magazines, photos. I made this film over a seven-year period, so it was very touch and go off and on. And there was one point in time I remember I went up there and the University of Wyoming, the archival facility attached with the university, they had, I think, seven boxes of Kenny archival material that his wife had saved. And it took me a full five days of scanning images, like [00:16:00] 12 hour day. I get there when it opened and when they would close. We had somewhere around 600 clips, actual whether it's a-

Colton Holmes (16:11):

Footage?

Jacob Hamilton (16:11):

... assets-

Colton Holmes (16:12):

Yeah, okay, got it.

Jacob Hamilton (16:12):

... in the film, which the firm that was clearing all of our legal side of things were like, "This is one of the most extensive archival asset lists that we've ever dealt with." But [00:16:30] so much of the story took place at that time, and Kenny can only do so much when he was in his 90s. Thankfully we got him actually shooting for us, which is incredible.

Colton Holmes (16:39):

Yeah, we were talking about how we loved that opening shot even of him just walking in and-

Jacob Hamilton (16:44):

First take.

Colton Holmes (16:44):

Yeah. Was it?

Jacob Hamilton (16:46):

Yeah, it was first take. I had no idea what he was going to do. Had no idea what he was going to do.

Colton Holmes (16:49):

What direction did you give him at that point?

Jacob Hamilton (16:50):

I just said, "Hey, Kenny, we're going to have a ball at the top of the key. Just walk in through these doors and take a shot, and we're going to film it." We have a wide, we have a tight, and [00:17:00] we just sit on the one wide the entire time. It's just a great opening. I'm on the tight lens, so I'm actually only following the ball. I have a close-up of the ball and I'm not even seeing what's happening. I just hear a big bounce and it goes in, and then everybody started laughing. I'm like, "What just happened?" He's like, "He just bounced the ball in through the hoop. It was perfect."

Colton Holmes (17:21):

First try.

Jacob Hamilton (17:22):

The first try. And I was like, "Well, we-

Colton Holmes (17:23):

Take that, Dude Perfect.

Jacob Hamilton (17:24):

Yeah. And it's like, "Well, maybe we should do one more take just in case." We didn't need to, but I was like ... It always scares [00:17:30] me to just do anything once. But that was the first take that it happened, and that's the clip we used for the opening of the film.

Colton Holmes (17:36):

What does the process look like for someone trying to tell a documentary story?

Jacob Hamilton (17:43):

I guess I'm old-school. I'm a paper guy, so I took all of our transcripts and printed them out so that I could take notes, highlight. And I had a Kenny Sailor's bible basically with ... It ended up being three binders, I think, with all of [00:18:00] our interviews. I would just go through and highlight them all, read them, have my notes that I could always refer to. Different colors of highlighters meant different things, like this is a personal story, this is a basketball-centric thing, this is whatever. So I'd be able to look at a page and be like, okay, we're talking about basketball on this page. And I'd make a note at the top of the page of here are the three things that are there, so I could flip through and know that Kenny's talking about his wife or he is talking about playing in the NBA or whatever. [00:18:30] So try to just anything I could do to speed up the process to look through things.

(18:35):

Then from a digital perspective of it, you have all these open up in a document. Now it's different today, because all these different editing software, you can actually ... a lot of them you can search through transcripts now within the program. I didn't have that luxury at that time. So I would have a word document open and I would do keywords-

Colton Holmes (18:56):

[inaudible 00:18:56] F.

Jacob Hamilton (18:56):

Yeah. And find ... I need somebody that says this and [00:19:00] would search for that and scroll through all the different responses and begin to piece things together.

(19:05):

But it started out with we had a paper edit. Build that out and realize we need a lot more work, but you know the story beats that you're trying to tell. I knew you look at the three acts that make up a film, and I knew most of these things probably fell within this act here or there. And then you're just trying to [00:19:30] bridge everything together, have some kind of smooth transition where maybe this is an opportunity for a verite moment, some B-roll, a historical significant moment.

(19:44):

So it's a process. And we did lots of test screenings with the film as well to see what's working, what's not working, who do you want to see more of, who do you think you need to hear less from. [00:20:00] And all that, it's just so many steps. It's so many processes and so many individuals that contribute to get you to the finish line of that. So I'm pretty sure that we actually had a 88-minute film and literally I cut 11 minutes, last minute.

Colton Holmes (20:23):

Oh, really?

Jacob Hamilton (20:23):

Yeah. Just things that a couple of people that I trusted were like, "I think it's just a smoother transition [00:20:30] if you just go from here to there and eliminate some of these things." And I'm sure I pushed back some on it, but ultimately I was like, "You're right. We're going to cut that and move on."

Colton Holmes (20:39):

Those last few minutes are always the hardest to cut, because as that piece starts to take shape, it's hard to imagine it being any different. And seconds become hard to cut because it's just like-

Jacob Hamilton (20:51):

I love that part.

Colton Holmes (20:52):

You do?

Jacob Hamilton (20:53):

I do.

Colton Holmes (20:53):

Not me, man.

Jacob Hamilton (20:55):

I love to get in there and find ... It's this frame here, that frame there, and it's grueling, but it's so [00:21:00] satisfying to me. We had an editor come on that helped get things going, and then we're an independent doc so I had to take the reins and finish the film. Thankfully I have an editing background, but had a lot to learn still. And then had another person come on as a mentor slash story producer that would sit in with me and help me shape the story even further. Just grateful for everybody that came together [00:21:30] to help make it as great of a story as it is.

Colton Holmes (21:32):

Yeah. There's countless hours that collectively went into this thing. I can't even imagine how many that would be.

Jacob Hamilton (21:41):

When this premiered, I think I was 35 years old, and it took me seven years to make. That's one fifth of my life that I worked on this one project. So I was ready to be done, but it was also surreal and you mourn closing a chapter like [00:22:00] that.

Colton Holmes (22:02):

I'm speaking for myself, but I would assume there's several people like me that are also creatives. I feel like I tend to just dream a lot and I'll have like, "Oh, this is a great idea that I could pursue," but I'd never follow through with them because I just dream and then I hit this cliff of I could either pursue it, and that's going to mean sacrificing a lot of things or potentially risking certain things, whether that's finances or time or even a job potentially. You spent seven years of your life on this story. What does it look like [00:22:30] to push past that cliff of like, "All right, I'm going to commit and this is going to become something that I actually chase and pursue"?

Jacob Hamilton (22:37):

Great question. The project started out as a short film, so I wanted to create a proof of concept.

Colton Holmes (22:46):

How long did that short take?

Jacob Hamilton (22:47):

Maybe eight months, nine months, I think. We went up there knowing we wanted to capture as much with Kenny, his main interview, as possible, that we would be making a feature documentary. So we had that to hang our hat on. From there, we used that to pitch and raise money and apply for grants and whatnot. So there were several hurdles that we had to clear to keep the thing going, but there were a lot of times where I was like, "I don't know if this is ever going to get completed," but I really did feel like this is the story that I need to tell. I tell people, if you're going to do a feature documentary independently where you're having to figure everything out, you've got to be married to the story. It's just one of those things. You have to be fully committed to it, because nobody else is going to help you finish it. It really does rely upon you. People can help, but you are the one that's going to have to finish pushing that boulder up there and rally people to come behind you. I just was like, "I've got this."

(24:00):

And then at a certain point, you get so far down the road, you're like, "I can't give up now." I remember having that moment. It's like, "Okay, this is actually happening. We're doing this." But there's little victories along the way, I think, that propel you forward. I was a recipient for the Austin Film Society grant. That was huge. And then there's a couple other grants that we won. Wyoming had a film grant at one point in time, and we applied to that and we were the ones that received it. So all those things helped keep the project alive and moving forward, and then allowed us to get to the point where we actually got to actually raise some capital by meeting with investors and actually get everything we needed to finish the film. It just took a long time.

Colton Holmes (24:51):

There's so much process and dedication and life that gets breathed into these projects, that viewers just don't think about. And [00:25:00] why should they? But this was seven years of your life and it's an hour of someone else's life. Was this your full-time job for those seven years? Were you working a full-time gig or doing other things to create a full time income and this was just a side project for those seven years?

Jacob Hamilton (25:19):

Yeah. I am a contractor freelance. I would just go and do whatever project I was called to go do, and then I'd come home. And then I'd come back and work on Jump [00:25:30] Shot. So that's another reason probably why it took a little bit longer, because it was just me-

Colton Holmes (25:38):

It's a passion project.

Jacob Hamilton (25:39):

... puttering my way through. But yeah, no, I did both. And I remember there was the slowest season of my career. It felt like there was a two or three month window, for whatever reason, at the beginning of the year once where I was like, "Nobody's calling me. I'm not working." And I think the fact that I was at least productive on editing [00:26:00] Jump Shot at that time, maybe that's how I was able to keep my sanity and be like, "At least I'm doing something. I'm not just sitting here twiddling my thumbs." I remember making great strides in the story at that point in time, too.

Colton Holmes (26:12):

Going back to the transcripts, I would imagine that you're building paper cuts this entire process through the whole seven years. You're just continually adding interviews to it. Is that-

Jacob Hamilton (26:21):

Yeah. Once you get to a certain point, the story's there and you're like, how can we make these scenes, these moments, better? And it's like, we need somebody [00:26:30] talking about this, or we need somebody that has this type of clout or perspective to enhance what's being talked about. So you get to go in very surgically as you get near the end of we need to talk ... These people need to be saying these things. So you hone in on what your questions are and you know exactly where you want to drop them in. So once the story has taken shape, you're able to move a little bit more quickly and drop those in.

Colton Holmes (26:57):

One thing I've admired and respected about [00:27:00] you since I've known you is just the way that you intentionally care for people and just love people well and are genuinely interested in just how people are doing. So I think what is it like to care for the person more than your dream? How do you steward that relationship well whenever you're sharing someone else's story?

Jacob Hamilton (27:17):

Thank you for saying that and noticing, I guess, that characteristic about me. I think it's something that just comes naturally to me, which just benefits me as a filmmaker, a documentary filmmakers specifically, but I've seen it carry over elsewhere. But I don't know. You just pay attention to what's going on. You might think you have the best way, and a lot of times it's not always the best case for them, for whatever reason. With documentary filmmaking, you just never ... You can plan as much as you want to, and it's hardly ever going to go exactly how you imagined. So you've got to roll with the punches. You've got to be flexible with like, okay, well that didn't work, so we're going to think of something else. I think that's part of the reason why I love this career is it's just an endless amount of problem solving.

(28:15):

A lot of people might not know I actually studied engineering. I got a degree in engineering. Didn't study film. That was something I was doing while I was in school. But problem solving is something I just absolutely love. Maybe it's a love hate thing, but it's something I appreciate and always am willing to think through, "Okay, this isn't working. How can we make this work and press on?" And filmmaking is the epitome of that, where you're constantly having walls and hurdles and obstacles thrown in front of you, and you're having to figure out. And that's from a lighting perspective. That's from a logistics perspective. That's from a story perspective. That's from a relationship perspective. There are so many things that [00:29:00] have aligned to be able to do what we do as filmmakers. So you can't just freeze and stop and give up. You have to keep pressing on and figure out, "Okay, this isn't working. How are we going to get through this? What do we need to do?"

Colton Holmes (29:21):

I would say probably even to another level with documentary filmmaking, because especially with someone who's still living and you're telling their story, it's an ever evolving [00:29:30] story even, as his friends are trying to push his name through the Hall of Fame and get his name on the ballot. That's probably developing while you guys are walking alongside of him. So it's just like-

Jacob Hamilton (29:39):

Yeah. We didn't know. We had no idea. We knew that there was a push. And that's a whole nother thing of I had this perfect plan. I was up in Wyoming during the Hall of Fame announcement, and I wanted to have all of the university people, the athletic [00:30:00] people that are in the film, I wanted to have everybody together watching it live, and nobody wanted to get together and watch it. I was like, "Well, this sucks. What am I supposed to do?" We have the recording of it and I see it happen. He doesn't get in. Jim Brandenburg, one of the former coaches at Wyoming, I saw that he was calling me and I thought maybe he just watched it. So I [00:30:30] just turned on my camera and held our boom mic up to the phone on speaker and got this raw moment of his frustration and disappointment. So you don't see anybody, but just that one moment, I think, embodies everybody's feelings of we just gave it everything we had and it still wasn't enough. That's one of those moments where I had to think on the spot [00:31:00] and that was the best thing that was given to us. And I can't imagine it any other way. It's perfect. So just serendipitous that that all played out the way it did.

Colton Holmes (31:10):

Are there any other lessons that you learned through that process that you now maybe implement or avoid, or mistakes that you made that have influenced the way that you approach new projects, whether that's directing or cinematography?

Jacob Hamilton (31:23):

Great. Oh, there's so many lessons learned over the years and for this project in particular. [00:31:30] I think, from a technical standpoint, I think it's really important to edit as you go. I think it takes the load off later on to ... Maybe get a couple interviews in, but start piecing together what you have because it allows you to shape the story as you go but also know what you don't have, what you need, and whatnot. So that's one thing.

(31:59):

Then I've been doing this for 20 years now, which is crazy to think about. I've been contracting out as a filmmaker. Be nice to everybody, because you never know what intern is going to be a director or producer you're working for. I'm serious. It's happened. It has happened. It's always important to be kind, in my opinion, and show respect to everybody, but this is a perfect case, an instance where it's somebody that was probably low in on the production totem pole is now calling the shots on something that you're working for. If you treated that person poorly or terribly, maybe you won't get that job if your name is in the hat for it. I don't know. Those are two things that come to mind.

Colton Holmes (32:51):

No, that's good. It honestly speaks into something I wanted to talk about, which is, again, just [00:33:00] relationships are a big part of any job that you have, but working on set with other people, you're going to have a lot of frustrations and it's going to have to be on a time crunch, and you're probably going to be hot and sweaty and frustrated with something that didn't go the way that you wanted to go. So surrounding yourself with the right people usually helps make that a little different. If you're working with your best friend, you can get either frustrated and just shrug it off or you all are frustrated together and you all already have a rapport and a team, a team working ethic. So when I saw the credits of Jump Shot, I was like, "Man, I know so many names. And I know that that's a value for Jacob is surround himself with good people." And I got to see all these good people, their names scroll up on the credits. What's it like getting to work on something that you care so deeply about with people that you care so deeply for?

Jacob Hamilton (33:55):

Honestly, it's humbling because we were an independent doc. [00:34:00] We did not have a large budget to ... We weren't able to pay anybody their rates. So we had people that basically were coming out and doing a favor. I always was like, "I'm going to pay you something. It's just not going to be what your time's really worth. That's not how I see you or value you, but this is just what the circumstance is right now. Thank you for giving [00:34:30] us your time and sacrificing that to make it happen." So it's incredibly humble to have people see something in you or the story where they're willing to say, "You know what, that's fine. I'll work at half the rate I normally would work for," or whatever, or donate this gear to help you see your vision.

(34:52):

That's something for me, too. Whenever young filmmakers or somebody has a passion project, I always ... [00:35:00] I'm a cinematographer. I direct now, too, but if a friend calls and they're like, "Everybody's booked. I need a gaffer. I need somebody to help me with the electric side of things," or, "I need a camera operator. I want somebody that I can trust that's going to be an awesome B cam," I am like, "Call me, let me know." There's no ego. I love to be on set. I love to work with friends, and I like to return those favors, too. So if somebody has a passion project and they can't pay me what my normal rate would be, if I'm available and I have the time to do it, I'm a hundred percent in. That would be so much fun. I don't know. I just love being on set. I love getting to work. I love the relationships, and I love the creative process of being a part of it.

Colton Holmes (35:48):

Yeah, that's really cool. I think just even your answer and so many other things that speak to into just your love for people and your love for filmmaking, and it's just seeing those two things come together is just ... It seems like it's a joy for you, and I think that shines through your work.

Jacob Hamilton (36:05):

Thanks, man. No, it's been a great journey. I will say there's at least one day a month where I'm like, "Maybe I should just go flip burgers." I'm so tired and so exhausted and it's such a grind, but I keep coming back to it and I love it. It is satisfying. We're creating something out of nothing. Nothing existed and then all of a sudden you have something that you're getting to share with people that inspire them, that move them to look at life through a different lens and open up to a world that they never knew. That's such an amazing gift to be able to get to be a part of that. So I think that's probably why I keep doing this, because there is that satisfaction of getting to inspire others. I don't know.

Colton Holmes (36:51):

Yeah. You're a dad now. You have two kids?

Jacob Hamilton (36:54):

Yep.

Colton Holmes (36:54):

Briggs is about to turn three. Tilly is ...

Jacob Hamilton (36:57):

Nine months.

Colton Holmes (36:58):

Nine months, okay. I imagine [00:37:00] that probably spills over into you being a dad now, inspiring others. I'm sure that you want to be this inspiration for them. I'm putting words in your mouth. I'm assuming this is probably the case. This is how I feel as a dad. But for me, whenever we were pregnant with our first, Judah, and I was at this tipping point of I knew a career change was about to be forced upon me as I was ending this temporary residency as a filmmaker, and it was like, do [00:37:30] I want to pursue being known as a filmmaker or do I want to pursue being known as a dad? At this point in my life, I didn't think the two could coexist. So I chose the just chasing after being a dad as the thing that I wanted to do. So for me now, six years later, it's fun and encouraging for me to see people who are doing both well, and that this thing that I didn't think was possible actually is possible. Our kids go to the same school, so I get to see you show up for Briggs and show up for Tilly. How do you balance [00:38:00] those two things well? What does that look like?

Jacob Hamilton (38:03):

It's a great question. I don't know if I do it well, but I try. I don't know. I'm learning. Being a father of a three-year-old and a nine-month-old, it still feels new, and they're constantly changing and what their needs are are changing. So it's a challenge.

(38:26):

I'll start with this. My dad [00:38:30] is incredible, so I have him as a great model. My father ... The second half of my childhood, I grew up in a single parent home, because my mother passed away from cancer when I was young. And my dad was there. He rose to the occasion. I was the oldest of three. He'd have breakfast ready in the morning. We'd get to school. We'd come home. We had help from family [00:39:00] and friends. Grandmother was basically second mother to us. She would be there when we get home from school. My dad would go to work, but somehow he came to all of our sporting events and coached, not even just showed up, but was coaching everything. I always knew, looking ahead when I didn't have kids, when I wasn't a father, I wasn't married yet, that I want to be there for my kids someday like my dad was there for us. But I knew that this filmmaking career is a little bit trickier than [00:39:30] most nine to five jobs, because we're required to travel so much. And it's like you get called, and if you say no, then you're not getting a paycheck. So it's like you have to find this balance of what projects do I want to take? Financially, does it make sense to accept this project? How long am I going to be away for?

(39:55):

I want to be there for my kids. Right now, it's easy, because it's like they don't necessarily [00:40:00] know if I'm gone or not, but as they get older and they are playing sports or they have certain school activities or events ... But currently, right now, I probably travel maybe around a third of every month, of you total up all the days. Maybe it's two to three days here, five days there or whatever. So I'm gone. I'm gone. And thankfully there's FaceTime, so I can at least have some kind of connection, but it's [00:40:30] nothing compared to the real deal of getting to hold your child and get them down, read books and hold them and tell them you love them. So when I am home, I make it a priority to be as fully present as I can be. That's all I can do. It's one of those things I wish I could do more, but realistically, it's just not possible. I could beat myself up over the fact that I'm gone the 10 days I [00:41:00] am a month, or I can say, "You know what? I'm gone those 10 days. That's just the way it is. But when I'm home, I'm fully here," hanging out, getting in the daycare, cooking meals, reading books at night.

(41:16):

I don't have it all figured out. I wish there was a way to somehow do both. I've looked at many opportunities where I'm like, should I just look at doing something that I'm just here working from Austin all the time and sacrifice [00:41:30] doing some of these other jobs that require a lot of travel? We haven't figured that one out yet, but we've got to earn a living. So this is the career path I chose. I've been in it long enough now, it feels like it would be a mistake to get out. Not that I'm super established, but I'm established enough that work comes in, and I'm grateful for that. So I'm going to keep answering that call.

(41:55):

But yeah, no, I love my kids. I love my wife and [00:42:00] I want to be home with them. Now, I want to be home more. When I leave, it's like, "I have to leave again. This sucks." I just want to be home with them. But I'm taking the latest flight out that I can to leave, so I can be around. And I'm taking the earliest flight out to get back in time to hang out with them, and just trying to get as much time with them. Because, as you know, as a young parent, time flies. Things change so quickly, and I [00:42:30] don't want to miss that. I don't want to miss this season of life with them.

Colton Holmes (42:35):

It's really encouraging just to watch you do those things, and obviously not perfect, but well. So for me, again, as someone who's just maybe didn't believe that that was possible.

(42:45):

So it's one thing that you mentioned was you were emotionally drawn to filmmaking or films as a kid, and then one day realized that it's something that you could actually do. What did that moment look like whenever you [00:43:00] realized, "Oh, I could be doing this thing that I was always emotionally drawn to"? How old do you think you were?

Jacob Hamilton (43:05):

It was my senior year of high school. I ended up getting a bootleg copy of Adobe Premier way back in the day and was able to ... Because everything we shot at that point in time, we shot chronologically on Hi-8 cameras or whatever.

Colton Holmes (43:20):

Mini DVDs.

Jacob Hamilton (43:21):

Yeah. Not even mini DVDs yet, at that time. There was our parents' camcorders that they had in the early '90s, I think. That's where I was [00:43:30] like, "Wow, this is incredible. I think this is something that I want to pursue." Already I had been accepted to Texas A&M where I was going to be studying engineering. Didn't know any filmmakers, so I was like, "I don't see how I'm going to do this as a living, so I should probably get a degree." But my counselor was like, "Look, I know the guys at the athletic department. There's the 12th Man Productions. This would be a great opportunity you for get some professional cameras, learn to edit, work on a TV show and whatnot." [00:44:00] So really grateful that she brought that to my attention, because I ended up working there for about two years until I was burnt out of dealing with sports, because when you work in sports, you're only working Friday, Saturday nights when everyone's going out having a fun time, but you're logging footage until 2:00 AM in the morning.

(44:15):

But it was just all these little things that snowballed where there was only one other filmmaker at A&M, at that time, because these little cameras that we all carry around with us today didn't exist. [00:44:30] And he and I both owned a Panasonic AG-DVX100. It shot mini DVDs, but it was the first prosumer camera that shot 24 frames per second. That gave it this filmic look, this cinematic look that you could not achieve on any other camera prior to then. Everything else looked like would've been on the news or a soap opera. Met another guy who was a filmmaker, the tail end of that. We all landed in Austin, and that's [00:45:00] how I found myself here. You work with those guys and then you just keep building out your network and who you're working with, and tell the stories.

Colton Holmes (45:08):

The common thread of relationship, again, coming into the story.

Jacob Hamilton (45:11):

Yeah.

Colton Holmes (45:13):

So much technologically has changed since then, and it seems to be rapidly changing still. It can either be approached from intimidation or it can be approached as like ... which I've been trying to do lately, is how can I utilize this to make my processes better so that I can be freed up to be [00:45:30] more creative? As you've gone through so much change and now AI being just this new catalyst, have you put any thought into that or have you utilized any-

Jacob Hamilton (45:38):

I'm a slow developer. I haven't. I have not even scratched the surface of what's possible and how I want to use it. It's one of those things I have seen and explored some ways to where I see it as a valuable tool, but technology [00:46:00] from cameras to lighting, AI, it's something that it's hard to keep up. It's so important to understand all of those things are tools that help us tell the stories that we're trying to tell, and the story, the way we tell a story doesn't change.

Colton Holmes (46:19):

You just took the words out of my mouth.

Jacob Hamilton (46:22):

Yeah, the cameras we have now ... I've seen so many incredible videos and they've just [00:46:30] shot this on whatever camera with no budget and it looks amazing. But if there's not a great story, what's bringing me to it? So it's one of those things, any of these things are great tools to help us be storytellers, but ultimately it still relies on somebody that knows how to tell a story and be able to interact with people and have a good relationship with his crew and be able to communicate. There's still all these things that you do need to assist [00:47:00] you in being a great storyteller, a great filmmaker, beyond just the tools, the physical tools that you can hold in your hands.

Colton Holmes (47:09):

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Just the tool is just a tool until it's put in the hands of a storyteller. And story has always been what story is for as long as humanity has been around. Story just permeates and continues to just be this constant, and these tools are just tools. They're just ways to help [00:47:30] us tell stories in a more efficient way or maybe in a different way. Yeah, I think that rings true is story is always going to be story.

Jacob Hamilton (47:39):

Story is going to be story.

Colton Holmes (47:40):

On that note, I would just love to know why story is important from someone who tells story through film.

Jacob Hamilton (47:49):

Story inspires. Story preserves. Story makes you feel things and appreciate [00:48:00] life. I'm such a crybaby and I'm so emotional. I really invest in story. So I think story is important for perspective, to get to see other worlds that we don't ...

(48:23):

We always joke around that being a filmmaker is like having a backstage pass in life. [00:48:30] The places that we get to go and the people we get to sit down with, nobody else gets access to do these things, but because we have a camera in our hand, we're given these opportunities. So it's a responsibility to be able to share, to tell these stories that maybe people would never get to hear or experience. I don't know how many people knew of Kenny prior to [00:49:00] Kenny Sailors getting to tell this film, but I knew that this would be a great opportunity and a platform to get to tell his story and hopefully inspire people in whatever way, however they see it, but to be a husband or a father or a mentor. So I don't know. Yeah, that's the long-winded, as I was processing that as we were sitting here.

Colton Holmes (49:25):

No, that's good. That's good. I think I agree with all of that. So [00:49:30] for everyone who's listening would just ... Can they follow you on social media and-

Jacob Hamilton (49:35):

Yeah, sure. Yeah, if you want to. It's a bunch of kid photos now these days, I feel like. But yeah. Jacob Ryan Hamilton is my Instagram. That's probably the one I'm most active on. And then if you want to tune into Kenny Sailor's, the Jump Shot movie, that's on iTunes and Amazon to be able to rent. I guess there's [00:50:00] also another documentary called Facing Nolan that definitely should check out, too. That's on Netflix right now. I was their cinematographer on that.

Colton Holmes (50:08):

Well, Jacob, thank you again so much for coming on today and being our very first guest. I'm just really honored that you would take the time out of what has been a busy schedule for you. You just came back from Colorado and you're about to be on the road again. Man, just thank you so much for joining us-

Jacob Hamilton (50:25):

Absolutely.

Colton Holmes (50:25):

... and sharing all the wisdom that you had to provide.

Jacob Hamilton (50:28):

Thank you for having me, and hope [00:50:30] I get to join you guys again. But it's an honor to be here, so thank you for thinking of me.

Colton Holmes (50:37):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out rev.com/podcast. That's rev.com/podcast.

(50:51):

Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft.

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