Jamilah King

Kendell Kelton (00:01):

Hi, I'm Kendall Kelton, and I'm your host today on The Rough Draft, featuring honest conversations with folks from across the creative industry, The Rough Draft explores the creative process, tools and resources used by some of the best in the business. From journalists to content creators and business leaders, we shed light on what it looks like to break into the industry, make mistakes, collaborate with others, and the essential tools that help us all along the way.

(00:24):

This week I'm super excited to be talking with Jamilah King. Jamilah is an editorial director at Mother Jones and oversees a team of investigative reporters covering race, politics, criminal justice, and more. She previously worked as a managing editor at BuzzFeed, and as a reporter she's profiled Kamala Harris, Stacey Abrams, and Lucy McBath. Her work has also appeared on HBO, Showtime, and CNN. And on today's episode, Jamilah is going to tell us about her career and approach to storytelling as both a journalist and editor, including her extensive coverage of Kamala Harris over the years.

(01:11):

All right. Hi, Jamilah.

Jamilah King (01:13):

Hi.

Kendell Kelton (01:14):

Hi. Thank you for coming on.

Jamilah King (01:17):

Thank you for having me. It is such a great opportunity to be here. I used Rev a lot-

Kendell Kelton (01:24):

Oh, yeah.

Jamilah King (01:24):

... in the beginning of my career.

Kendell Kelton (01:26):

Oh my gosh. Love to hear that. But I'm excited to get to know a bit about you, and I know our audience will as well. So I want to start from the beginning, what sparked your interest in journalism?

Jamilah King (01:43):

Wow. So my interest in journalism began when I was quite young. I was in middle school. It was March of 1997, at the time Stanford had this really incredible basketball team that was in their third straight Final Four, and they were led by a point guard named Jamila Wideman. And I was like, "I like her name, and also I like basketball."

(02:08):

But that month she was on the cover of Sports Illustrated, and she was the subject of a feature by Gary Smith that was just written in such a compelling way. It was a pretty dark history of her family and how she overcame that. I think that was the moment where I was like, "Oh wow, you can write really pointed history in a way that really resonates with people." That said, I don't think I really made the connection until years later because I didn't really pursue journalism. The one message that I got growing up from my mom was, "Do something you love." And so that gave me a lot of freedom in thinking about what I wanted to do, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me what that was until I was in my early 20s.

Kendell Kelton (02:57):

And so what was that spark that was like, "Okay, I'm going to do this now," where did you go first?

Jamilah King (03:05):

I went to Craigslist. That's where folks went back in the day.

Kendell Kelton (03:07):

That's true.

Jamilah King (03:09):

Yeah. So I was finishing up college and because all I knew was school, I was like, "Well, obviously more school." But I was like, "Let me try this journalism thing before I make any real decisions." And so I found my first journalism internship at a place called WireTap Magazine, which no longer exists. And it just so happens it was just a very small operation run by a wonderful woman named Kristina Rizga, who really kind of just needed an assistant. And so we were working out of her house in San Francisco, and I loved it. I loved the fact that you, "Wait, you get to read and write and get paid, that's really cool."

(03:53):

So that's kind of when it clicked for me was in the early 2000s. And that was also a moment where... We were in this transitional moment in journalism where things were finally becoming digital, blogs were a big thing. And so there was a possibility, because like I said, I didn't go to journalism school. I didn't see myself as a traditional journalist, but I did read a lot and I was really into music. I was really into culture. I was really into culture writing, and I've been hooked ever since.

Kendell Kelton (04:27):

And then you transition to New York City?

Jamilah King (04:30):

Yeah, I moved to New York City when I was 26 years old. And I mean, it was all the things. It just so happened it was 2011, so this was right around the time when social media was really taking off, and there was suddenly a lot of opportunity in journalism. And so that's where I got to sort of be in the belly of the beast, so to speak, and really just write and practice my craft.

Kendell Kelton (04:56):

And then you transitioned to much larger publications, right?

Jamilah King (05:02):

Yes. Yes.

Kendell Kelton (05:03):

And so you were at Mic and your first stint at Mother Jones and BuzzFeed, so how did that transition go from being you were in this cultural, local gig for a while to then being exposed on a much larger platform?

Jamilah King (05:22):

Yeah, it was not planned. I think the entire time I was like, "Well, I'm still going to go to grad school." But I think that that moment in journalism was really interesting because there was just so much opportunity, especially in New York City. And so I remember going to mic.com's office for the first time. It was in the West Village, and it was this big open concept office with... It was just fun. It was all the typical things you hear about startups, there was a vending machine, there was free snacks, there was just a lot. There was this huge influx of capital into media, which I hadn't experienced before because my history was at smaller nonprofit or alt weekly publications. I was very skeptical of it, but also I saw the opportunity that it gave people. So at Mic I was able to meet some of the smartest people I know, and I was able to see what happens when you just give a bunch of people money to create, and that was really cool.

Kendell Kelton (06:27):

You were saying how Mic, as an example, was getting this stream of cash coming in, but then you see media outlets shutting down. And you know that personally, so how has navigating that shift kind of influenced the way you approach journalism now?

Jamilah King (06:54):

I think the thing that always kept me from thinking about journalism as a long-term career was the fact that I was raised working class, and I was raised in a blue collar family where folks had pensions and they stayed at jobs for 20 and 30 years. And I didn't see that in journalism. I especially don't see it now.

(07:17):

So for myself, I've had to really become comfortable with the instability of the industry, and you never get totally comfortable with it, obviously. The guiding force for me has been asking myself one question, which is, "How can I make myself useful?" So much of journalism is driven by ego, and it's like, "My byline, it's my clips, it's my body of work." And that's important, but I think there's also a moment where, particularly, if you're a woman in journalism and you're thinking about starting a family or whatever, you have to think about what you're actually willing to do.

(07:57):

And for me, that's meant having to think about, well, do I want to be that reporter who's out in the field all the time, filing stories and building up that body of work, but also, are there other things? Are there other places in the newsroom where I can be useful? Whether that's mentoring other folks, whether that's editing, whether that's just finding places to fill the holes. Because like you said, places are shutting down. So there's plenty of work to go around and not a lot of opportunity. So if you do find yourself with the opportunity to be in a newsroom, the question really is, how can you make yourself useful and how can you fight against that feeling of being stuck or feeling stuck and feeling like you're giving into the cynicism, you're giving into... That is kind of how the machinery is designed to work right now. And so figuring out how to be flexible, figuring out how to adapt, figuring out how to look at...

(09:03):

... figuring out how to adapt, figuring out how to look at changes in the industry, not as threats, but as opportunities, is really hard and it takes some time, but that's been something that's been important to me.

Kendell Kelton (09:12):

Mother Jones in particular is a non-profit, which may come with its own unique set of challenges, y'all aren't necessarily throwing up a paywall to get to some of y'all's investigative pieces. And so, how does that differ from some of these larger commercial outlets, like advantages or hurdles?

Jamilah King (09:32):

Yeah. So Mother Jones, we're a non-profit, which means we do not rely solely on advertising to make revenue, and it also means that we have to be really selective in the types of stories that we pursue. We're not going to send 10 reporters to cover a presidential debate necessarily. But what it does mean is that we have to be really selective in figuring out, okay, so what is our unique angle here? What are our hardcore readers interested in? I think you have to be a little bit more scrappy.

Kendell Kelton (10:10):

Do you think the scrappy nature, being able to pour yourself into more diverse content, was part of the decision to come back? Because you had left for an opportunity, and then a year ago-

Jamilah King (10:28):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (10:28):

... just about-

Jamilah King (10:28):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (10:28):

... almost exactly a year ago, you came back, yeah.

Jamilah King (10:31):

Almost exactly a year ago, yeah, absolutely. The thing that has always impressed me about Mother Jones is the longevity of the masthead and the folks who are in the office. And so, I knew that at Mother Jones, I could really work on building a career. And I'd made this decision a few years ago to focus on editing and try to understand what that even means, and I knew that I'd have the flexibility, and also the time, to figure out what that meant and make mistakes and be able to recover from that, hopefully. So that was a big draw in coming back, and also, there were some really exciting things bubbling up at Mother Jones that I knew I wanted to be a part of.

Kendell Kelton (11:25):

I want to talk about your storytelling, and you in particular have reported on such sensitive and nuanced issues, and I want to understand a bit more about your process for ensuring your stories... Yes, they're investigative, but they're also deeply human. And so, I want to just get a peek behind the curtain a bit about how you approach your work. You've done long form content, you've done podcasts, is there a particular channel that you are called to to push your stories and your work forward?

Jamilah King (12:06):

I think I would've said, five years ago, it was writing, but I'm pretty platform-agnostic these days. I think that as consumers, we are so inundated with storytelling, and it comes at us from all different angles, and I think we have to adopt that attitude as producers and editors and reporters. I will say that I've really loved audio, learning more about audio, I've been a big fan of podcasts for years, really appreciate the intimacy of that platform. And also, there's some nuances in that, I think there's some nuances in terms of how, as a reporter, you approach those stories. What makes good tape for audio is not necessarily going to work in a written piece. Ideally, all of these platforms work together. I think at Mother Jones right now, we're trying to figure out a way to make individual stories work on a bunch of different platforms.

Kendell Kelton (13:11):

Yeah. And people are just absorbing content in different ways, they could have once been a voracious reader, they have a busy life now, they have to catch something really quick, it's a newsletter, or maybe it's a podcast on their commute to work. I have to imagine having to think about all the different ways you have to put one single story out there in the world. Do you find a lot of creative joy in walking that, if I read that correctly?

Jamilah King (13:44):

Sure do, sure do.

Kendell Kelton (13:47):

Are there things that you constantly go to to refill your creative cup, or just to get your writing or thought process or editing going?

Jamilah King (13:58):

Yeah, I'm a big walker. I've always been a big walker, I've loved taking super long walks, I'm lucky to have lived in really walkable cities. And so, for me, whether it's walking my dog or just taking long walks by myself, and recently it's been running, but doing those things without distractions, so without headphones, which is a whole... It's a really different thing. I've always been really, really inspired, particularly by runners who are able to run without any headphones, without any distractions, because I think that is the hardest thing in the world to do. But it is a really interesting practice in figuring out how to tune into your breathing, and also surprise yourself with what things come up.

(14:47):

I've realized that as I run, or even if I'm walking, I'm usually daydreaming and it's aspirational. If I'm aspirational, I can dream and think of all these cool things I want to do. If I'm present, I'm working through an issue or a particular problem, or maybe ruminating, going over something again and again, but also just trying to sit with what's present. So for me, movement is really important, and just also finding joy, man. I'm really an optimist, and so trying to find the things that I connect with other people on I think is really important, and figuring out what you can learn from those connections.

Kendell Kelton (15:27):

You were talking about connection, there's some people who are... Collaboration is fun in some instances, and not in others, and I think when you're an editor in particular, collaboration has to be so essential to the relationships with your staff. So I'd love to understand how you approach that in journalism, what your take is on it.

Jamilah King (15:50):

So for me, I've always been really lucky in that every editor I've worked with has been collaborative in nature, in spirit, and practice. There's definitely a confrontational approach to editing, which I don't really subscribe to, I don't find it useful or effective for me.

Kendell Kelton (16:11):

Yeah. And that's what you also see in movies, the editor is always this badass who's not going to take anything and not going to take any questions.

Jamilah King (16:23):

Totally. I think the portrayal of reporters and editors in movies is of these two incredibly strong, aggressive personalities coming at each other at 100 miles per hour and colliding, and the most powerful winning. And while I think that might be true in some ways, most journalists are nerdy little introverts who are grateful to have somebody else to bounce ideas off of.

(16:51):

And so, for me, the process of journalism has always been deeply collaborative, because it has always been I write this thing, it kind of makes sense, usually it doesn't, so I have an editor who helps me get it into shape, I have a copy editor who makes sure that everything is tidy, I have a fact-checker, if I'm lucky, who's able to go through and tell me what I've gotten wrong, I have even a web editor who's able to stage a story. I have all of these people who I'm relying on to make the story happen, and I'm really aware of that. I'm definitely aware of it as an editor who's been in charge of pulling all these pieces together and getting them out into the world.

(17:35):

And I think the thing that we miss in this moment of influencers and creators who are tasked with doing things completely on their own is that they don't have that backup, whether it's an institution, whether it's an editor. It's not just for the sake of being able to say, "Hey, I have a team," it's to help offload some of the work, and that collaboration means that you have more-

(18:03):

And that collaboration means that you have more opportunities for people to catch things. You have more opportunities for people to help make things better. And so the onus isn't completely on you.

Kendell Kelton (18:12):

So you mentioned fact checking, and I'm interested because the amount of information coming out these days and the risk of misinformation is pretty high, and AI is a thing that people use for, we'll say, good or evil at this point. How do you see the utilization of AI becoming more prevalent in newsrooms, but how do you see this misinformation impacting reporting at Mother Jones or elsewhere?

Jamilah King (18:44):

Yeah, I'll start with the second half of that question. So I think we just saw it this week with Hurricane Milton. You saw so much misinformation flooding around the internet, and I think it's difficult to figure out how to have that conversation with folks, because on the one hand, it ultimately becomes a conversation about privilege. Who has access to information that is vetted, that is fact-check? That is sort of the environment that we live in when you're looking at all these storied institutions that have their reporting behind a paywall. The free content that we have access to is usually questionable, but also the bar to entry is lower. And so it is easier to sort of be someone who has traditionally been locked out of the industry and say, "You know what? I'm going to start my own thing and it's going to be a great thing."

(19:37):

But then you have platforms that incentivize creating constantly. And so it's just this wild beast that just keeps growing and growing and growing. I think that there definitely needs to be more of a conversation around media literacy that's not centered on shame or on judgment, because I think people tend to do the best they can with what they've got and what's interesting to them. In terms of AI, definitely when AI first became a really big thing in 2023 for me, I was like, "What the fuck is this? We're all doomed." And then I was able to sort of walk that back a little bit. I was lucky to go to the Maynard Institute training, which is an annual training in Texas, and I was able to meet a professor at Boston University, Michelle Johnson, who has a really great newsletter that sadly is on hiatus, but it's called AI Insider.

(20:41):

And it was just really helpful for me because she basically would just explain what was happening, but also how you could use these things as reporters. So how can you make something like ChatGPT or Copilot or Gemini useful for you? How do you take a data set for instance and throw it in there and make your work as a reporter more feasible? And so that really helped shift my perspective and say, "Okay, this is useful as a tool and every tool, it's going to be scary in the beginning, just like the internet was scary in the beginning, but now we see it more as a tool." So really it's just my facility with that tool.

Kendell Kelton (21:30):

So let's talk a bit about tools. Are there any tools that you're like, "These are the things that every reporter should use today," or if somebody were entering their career, this is a thing that even if you have $3 to your name, you should invest in?

Jamilah King (21:45):

Yeah, so a couple things. I think a YouTube premium subscription is key just because you get access, you don't have to deal with ads and all that. There's also an app called TickTick, which is a task app that I am trying to learn how to use, but the way that I have learned how to use it is really helpful and that it helps you sort of collate your tasks based on different buckets, but also the immediacy. I would also recommend Canva, honestly. I think not even just making stuff look cool, but just having the confidence or having the visual mindset when you are making anything from a resume to a syllabus, to a story, whatever it is.

Kendell Kelton (22:37):

Well, thank you for sharing a bit more about your process, and I think we're all going to maybe walk out of here trying to avoid using their headphones on their next walk or run. I don't know to what success, but we'll try.

Jamilah King (22:52):

It's really hard.

Kendell Kelton (22:53):

Yeah. Jamila, you and Kamala Harris are both from the Bay Area.

Jamilah King (23:01):

Yes, we are.

Kendell Kelton (23:02):

And how do you think growing up in that particular cultural and political environment has shaped your understanding of her political rise? I mean, you have been reporting on her for years now.

Jamilah King (23:17):

I think growing up in the Bay Area has allowed me to understand not just Kamala Harris and how she approached politics, but sort of how diverse a particular party or segment of politics can be, right? So I think on the national level, especially in national elections, we're used to thinking about Democrats and Republicans, right? In the Bay Area, which is a fairly progressive place, but there is a lot of gradation in there and there's a lot of conservative values, conservative pockets. So if anything, it's allowed me to, I think, approach looking at her in a pretty nuanced way, because I think the Bay Area is a really beautiful, full, diverse, but very nuanced place. And she grew up in Oakland. I grew up in San Francisco. We're about two decades apart in age, but I think still the residue of so many of the political movements that the Bay Area is known for was very much present in my childhood as it was with hers.

(24:31):

So I'm talking about the Black Panther party. I'm talking about gay liberation struggles. I'm talking about 1960s, 1970s anti-war protests and movements. And so all of that stuff was really palpable. And for me, for instance, some of the most tangible ways that that showed up for me was not at my dining room table. I grew up in San Francisco really close to the Haight-Ashbury. And so there were a lot of aging hippies around, folks who come to San Francisco to protest the war and then gotten involved and then gotten pretty deep into drugs and were, by my childhood, the folks who were kind of the eccentric people in the neighborhood, sleeping on the streets and whatever. And so I say that because there's an idealism that is also kind of tragic. You see kind of all shades of it. And I think that has shaped a lot of my perspective of covering her rise and I think my approach to politics in general.

Kendell Kelton (25:47):

What were some of the earlier stories or maybe even just characteristics you noticed about her that may have been overlooked by broader media until maybe her presidential bed?

Jamilah King (26:01):

Let's see. Some of the older stories I think had to do with how Kamala Harris was able to build or not build coalitions wherever she was. I think she was always this sort of newcomer who was a little bit different and the sort of ruptures at that cause I think are probably more telling of her than the history that it's made. So I think you'll notice now in this year, she's not talking a lot externally about the historic nature of her running again for president or what it would mean for her as a woman, as a black woman, as a biracial person to be a president. And I think that's part of it. But I think in order to even get through the political gatekeepers of San Francisco, she had to be really, really ruthless. That's the sort of through line that I've seen with her is just this very calculated approach to everything.

(27:03):

... approach to everything, and sometimes that's been not in her favor, it's made her seem excessively cautious, but also it shows that she's someone who is not just running on good vibes and luck, right? She's had some skin in the game and she's been beaten up quite a bit, so that's something I've noticed, for sure.

Kendell Kelton (27:27):

Yeah, and I think especially when she was thrust into the national spotlight, when she was in the Senate, and all of these hearings that she was participating in, people started to really see that more ruthless, calculated side of her, and were like, "Whoa, who is this? Who is this person?" I guess as she's moved into that larger spotlight, had your perspective of her shift at all, or you're like, "No, this is the person that I watched back in California"?

Jamilah King (28:01):

I think she's remarkably similar. She's not a different person by any means. I think, if anything, she's smarter, older, wiser, like hopefully we all are in the 20 years that we're doing something. But I do think that what has been surprising to me is watching how she deals with failure specifically, and failure, you can call it whatever you want, when she was running for President, but in 2021, she was having a really rough go of it.

Kendell Kelton (28:39):

That was the Lester Holt interview, was that year? Yeah.

Jamilah King (28:41):

That was Lester Holt interview, that went really poorly, and there were a lot of stories about how Biden should replace her on the ticket essentially, because of all these things. And those stories were pretty persistent until basically July of 2024. I think that how someone deals with failure is very instructive, and I think in her case, you've seen a lot of, I would assume, introspection and just rejiggering of all the things. And so that's been interesting to see. I think also it's been really interesting to see her as the center of a universe of pretty powerful Black elected officials, Black women elected officials, that she's created over the years that include Lateefah Simon and London Breed, and mostly Californian politicians who are not necessarily all super loved by progressives. In fact, some of them have very contentious relationships with progressives, and so I personally like to see that tension. I like it when it's made clear that not all Black people and not all Black women think the same. That's important to note.

Kendell Kelton (30:06):

We're all just human. We all have different thoughts and opinions.

Jamilah King (30:06):

We're all just human, right, we're all figuring it out. And really the question is can she manage an office. The most powerful office in the world but can she manage an office, and I think that is the question that we're grappling with right now.

Kendell Kelton (30:20):

Yeah, and so the election is 24 days away from when we're filming this, and what do you think in these last couple weeks, the challenges and opportunities for her campaign?

Jamilah King (30:33):

At this rate, people are set in their ways and set in what they think, so the question is will excitement about her candidacy reach people who were on the fence and maybe weren't going to vote, but now they're thinking about voting, and that Standom I think doesn't exist or hasn't really existed in the Democratic Party since Obama. But I think it's also important to remember that Obama wasn't the most beloved figure for progressives in 2007, 2008. Another thing that I'll be watching, it's a little thing, but she has been doing a media blitz.

Kendell Kelton (31:17):

Yeah, a big one, this past week.

Jamilah King (31:20):

A huge one, and it's not stellar, right? And nobody would be able to do a media blitz and have every single thing be perfect. But the fact that she's doing it I think is a huge change from 2021, Lester Holt going really poorly, and then her disappearing from the public stage for a while. I'll be waiting for whatever the October surprise is. I don't know what it's going to be, but at this rate, in this election year, it's going to be big.

Kendell Kelton (31:54):

Watching how election coverage has changed since Obama and then with Trump and then now with Harris, how do you think about election specific coverage and approaching it? Because it feels like the stakes are much higher now.

Jamilah King (32:12):

Yeah, it does feel like the stakes are higher. I think it's helpful to talk to politicians, but I think it's a great opportunity to talk to communities about what they want and what they're seeing, and I think giving more airtime to folks in communities is important. I think elections are an opportunity, it's the performance evaluation of our leadership every four years, and we get to set the goals, we get to say, "This is what we want, these are merits that we're going to judge you on over the next four years." And so my hope is that more people can be part of that conversation or feel like they're part of that conversation, even if they're not excited about the candidate or candidates, I totally understand that. My hope is that they turn out to vote and are able to just at least be part of the conversation because we're not looking to have a cheerleader in the White House, we're looking to have somebody that we want to hold accountable. Who would you rather fight with? Who would you rather be battling against? And that's how I see it.

Kendell Kelton (33:18):

Well, seems like a great analogy for editor and staff and that collaboration we talked about earlier.

Jamilah King (33:26):

Definitely.

Kendell Kelton (33:26):

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Before we go, can you let our audience know where they could find you or your work?

Jamilah King (33:35):

Sure. Folks can find me on all the socials at Jamilah, J-A-M-I-L-A-H, K-I-N-G, Jamilah King, and say hi.

Kendell Kelton (33:47):

Yeah, awesome. Well, we'll link to everything in our show notes, and, again, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jamilah King (33:56):

Thank you so much for having me.

Kendell Kelton (33:59):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out rev.com/podcast. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to rate and subscribe in order to stay up to date with the latest episodes. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft. 

‍