John Rains

John Rains (00:00):

We're not all of a sudden just going to go underwater for a scene, when that was never the plan. We can do it. I can get it. Do you have money for it?

Colton Holmes (00:08):

So you're like the general manager for the baseball team?

John Rains (00:10):

100%.

Colton Holmes (00:11):

Yeah. Got it.

John Rains (00:11):

That's a very good comparison. Our crew here work just as hard as the crew that work in LA and work in New York. They've worked on jobs just as big of scale. There's not a project that doesn't need to shoot a vertical crop, and a 4:5 crop, and a 16 by... I mean everything nowadays is going on every platform in every way. Luckily, I came out the womb pretty confident as a human being.

Colton Holmes (00:34):

I'm Colton Holmes, and today I'm your host on The Rough Draft. In this episode, I sit down with Austin based commercial producer John Rains. John's impressive portfolio boasts collaborations with iconic brands like Nike, Tommy Hilfiger, Nissan, and Reebok to name just a few. Central to John's work is his dedication to building upon Austin's reputation as a production hub and fostering a positive onset culture. We explore the evolving role of social media and advertising, its effects on consumer engagement, and how this shift has shaped John's approach to his projects.

(01:06):

We also talk about the importance of networking, assembling a talented crew, and the synergy required onset to create outstanding work. All right, here's my conversation with John Rains.

(01:25):

All right, John. So you and I have known each other for five or six years now. We've gotten to work on a few projects together, but getting ready for this interview actually, I went and looked at your website, which actually I think is the first time I've ever looked at your website.

John Rains (01:37):

Funny.

Colton Holmes (01:39):

One of the first things that just kind of jumped out to me while looking at your site is all the big brand names. And I've known that you have done large projects with these brands before, but I've never seen it I guess just curated in one spot. And so I think that's just where I want to start off. Tell me about what that is even like working with large brands that are household names.

John Rains (02:00):

Well, from a website perspective, you obviously put the coolest stuff first. So it's not like that's the only things I do, but I'm going to take advantage of the things I have done from a marketing point of view.

(02:12):

But a lot of those projects, it's the culmination I would say of the network of things you know and people you know growing over the years. And so it's like, I think when we all get into the video world of some extent, it's like Nike is kind of a dream client for everybody. I feel like at least in my world, I come from sports and stuff, and it was like Nike was the brand you would want to get to work with.

(02:34):

So early on, I'm DMing Nike or emailing Nike 10 years ago when I shot a wedding and I have no business emailing Nike, and you're like, "Hey, I'd love to do work for you." And they're like, "They're not going to respond." Sure you would. That's not going to happen though buddy. That's not how this works.

(02:52):

And then eventually, over the years, you start doing other projects, you build a better portfolio. You start to get more work that gets interesting, and somebody said it to me one time. It's like Nike finds you when they're ready and want you. You don't really find Nike.

(03:05):

Now there's other brands, but that's not necessarily the same way, and you can go on the offensive a little bit to get those projects. But a lot of times it's like you kind of get to do those projects when you're ready to do those projects, and the way you get ready is you do a lot of projects that aren't as sexy and aren't on the website. And I guess, it's a little bit of both. You also just do more projects that make you better what you do, so you actually are even a position to where you are an asset to where they would want to take advantage of you.

(03:30):

But I am not so much the player in that stuff. It's more the creative who's going to lead the way, who's going to get themselves the platform of being trusted to creatively lead whatever ad campaign's happening. But if you're the person that that creative trusts and you're somebody who's done work with that creative as they've become a bigger deal, or you've done work with a brand or a production company who has creatives that they can put up and they trust you, that's where I come in being a producer, where they trust me to go execute the project, to bid the project, to run the project. And then my portfolio matters because I'm a fit for them, but their portfolio is really what gets the opportunity to begin with.

Colton Holmes (04:12):

Obviously, you put in a ton of work before with these smaller projects, but then you've also started networking with other creatives in the industry, directors, photographers, etc. Was it a combination of those that brought those big brands to your doorstep, the building up your portfolio, but then also having been networked with someone who did have their foot in the door?

John Rains (04:32):

Totally. I mean with specifically Nike, and Reebok, and some of those jobs I've done, they didn't even come to my door necessarily. They came to a director, photographer friend of mine, his door, because he'd been pounding the pavement for years and building a portfolio of his own, while he and I had done work also on the side and I'd helped him with projects. And then when he got that call, "Hey, come do the shoot for Reebok, come do the shoot for Nike." I'm that person that then he calls to come help make the bid, put it together, and produce it.

(05:00):

And so for me, there are times when I am on the offensive and the brands do come to me, and I put up creatives for the opportunity. But the flip side's true too, where I'm not even the one that the job's brought to. I'm just the one who winds up coming in to execute the job, because the job went to somebody else through their portfolio, and their own network, and things like that.

Colton Holmes (05:19):

Let's stop there, and let's actually talk about what it is you do. You're a producer for these shoots, and so just explain to me what that is and what that looks like.

John Rains (05:28):

Within film specifically, what a producer is for say TV and movies is a lot different than producers within the ad industry. And so within my particular industry, you kind of have executive producers, which I've worn that hat at times. It's not a hat I currently wear and want to wear. It's not really my thing. But those are the people who are out there whining and dining, and meeting people, and working with clients, and building relationships with a lot of brands. And they're kind of pounding the pavement to really connect with all these people for opportunities.

(06:02):

And then one step down from that, you have line producers, which is what I find myself doing majority of the time. And we as line producers are kind of there to guide and right the ship through the project. We're the point person either for the creative team, or the point person for the brand, point person for the agency. Whoever it is that kind of has come to us. And we're the right hand of the creative director, the photographer, whoever it is that's executing the creative side, and we're kind of where the buck stops. We're the ones managing the calendar, the budgets, the travel logistics, the whole scope of the project from an execution point of view. We obviously are there to also make sure the creative gets done and to execute whatever the creative vision is. But sometimes, we're there to also put some handcuffs on and make the creative realistic. Make it something that we can actually get done, not have everybody go too overboard with what the budget may allow on a project. And the bigger the job, the more help there is to keep up with it.

Colton Holmes (07:00):

Yeah. How do you go about allocating the funds for different aspects of the shoot?

John Rains (07:05):

That's a good question. I would say there's two different approaches that happen. One, if it's kind of an open-ended, "Hey, we haven't done this a lot before. We're looking to make something, we're looking to shoot a video for an event. We're looking for something that isn't super routine within the ad industry," like broadcast since. Then you can kind of start from scratch sometimes. There may be rates of certain crew, there's certain standards that we're going to stick by. But you may or may not need post-production. You may or may not need talent. You may or may not need locations. Some of those things may already be a piece, and so the budget for those more off and on situations are just kind of based off of needs of, "Hey, you're trying to get X, Y, Z done. Here's what you have available to you, here's what you don't have available to you. Here's what those things are going to cost." And knowing what they cost come from years of reps and knowing things.

(07:59):

On the flip side, for broadcast and ad agency work, which is the majority of what I do, there are a lot of standards. There's a lot of the way things go in our industry. There's obviously unions in some states. Well in all states, but some states are more union guided than others. And in those spaces, rates are completely predefined. In Texas, it's a lot of non-union work, just because we're a right to work state, which means you don't have to be in a union to do union work. So it's a little bit more flexible here.

(08:28):

But there's still a lot of norms in terms of what department handle, what tasks. You're not going to go ask somebody in the lighting department to start decorating the background. You're not going to go ask somebody in camera department to put up a light. There's small jobs, a lot of people wear a lot of hats. And we've all probably come from that world at some point. But as things scale, that becomes an understood norm that that's not the case, especially within the ad industry.

(08:53):

So with those things, you kind of start building out the blueprint of what's the backbone of all the expectations of a shoot within the various departments, and then you start slotting in all the money. And then you realize they either have as much money as you're going to need for the vision, or we're going to start tweaking the vision to fit how much money you have. And can we really go to five locations in one day? Because that's a lot of location moves, which takes a lot of time that you're not shooting. Or should we get this down to two locations, which is less money in locations budget? And we can actually get this done on time. And so all that becomes part of the seesaw.

Colton Holmes (09:27):

What is the biggest budget that you've worked with on a project?

John Rains (09:32):

Directly, 2 million. Indirectly, 3.5.

Colton Holmes (09:35):

Really?

John Rains (09:36):

Yeah.

Colton Holmes (09:36):

And you handled that entire-

John Rains (09:38):

Yeah.

Colton Holmes (09:39):

Okay.

John Rains (09:40):

Yeah, so-

Colton Holmes (09:40):

That's a lot of money.

John Rains (09:42):

It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. And when those jobs happen, there's a lot of versions of what million dollar projects look like. But with those projects, that could mean that you're shooting one day and it is absolutely gigantic. Could also mean you're shooting for 25 days and each day is really not that crazy. You're just shooting a long time, and the dollar amount doesn't always mean how big the job is. You got a kind of context of how many days you actually fit into that budget.

Colton Holmes (10:10):

So are you really good at handling your own budget at home?

John Rains (10:13):

Yeah. So my mom was an accountant when I was a kid, and she ended up switching over to working a little bit different... But I mean, there's budgets fit in my family my entire life.

Colton Holmes (10:23):

It just kind of runs in the family.

John Rains (10:26):

Runs in the family, you learn it. It becomes part of who you are.

Colton Holmes (10:26):

You are destined to be a producer.

John Rains (10:28):

Yeah, definitely. And my wife can attest to the at-home budgets that we also stick to.

Colton Holmes (10:35):

Going back to working with the creatives, what does that back and forth look like between stewarding the vision, but also stewarding the budget? How does that go? Kind of walk me through.

John Rains (10:45):

In the commercial world, a lot of times the creative directors or photographers, they're not even the ones who have come up with the vision. The ad agencies come up with the vision. And so the vision's pretty set. There's going to be an iteration and an execution point of view that's going to change, but it's not as open-ended. Everything's not an option. We're not all of a sudden just going to go underwater for a scene, when that was never the plan. Someone may throw it out and we can throw out an overage to get more budget to do it, but you're not going to get as many curveballs.

(11:12):

For me, it's more you're making a bid initially that is saying, "Hey, for X amount of money, for X amount of days, we can pull off whatever you're trying to do. This director here has done that kind of stuff before. They know how to execute and do it, and they're going to add spice and vision to make your idea come to life." Thankfully, I'm not in the position all too often of a concept and a budget that just don't work. But, everything naturally creeps in scope as you go.

(11:40):

And so what if we added a drone? What if we do this? What if we do that? And so it's like sometimes you have room to wiggle and add things that weren't necessarily planned on. Other times, it's the hard conversations of unless there's more budget to go there, it's not in scope.

Colton Holmes (11:53):

What about when something's maybe out of your control that just has to change budgets, and then ends up sacrificing some of the creative vision?

John Rains (12:01):

That definitely happens on every job. And from a client perspective, they don't even see some of that stuff a lot of the time, because it may be this one location was perfect and was going to be in budget, and all of a sudden they're pulling out. They're not able to accommodate, the dates don't work, whatever. And the backup location is twice as expensive. Well, we as a production said we get them a location. We have to make that work. But if it's more money, where's that money coming from? Well, now we're going to have to pull from somewhere else. And you just have to keep allocating.

(12:27):

To me, I'm always looking at what are the core pieces that have to exist? Is this concept driven off of the location that we need to get, and it has to be a downtown rooftop, and so at all costs get a downtown rooftop? Or is it a location where it's wardrobe needs to be everybody in suits and ballroom gowns, and so you have to put the money and you can't go cheap? Because cheap suits and ballroom gowns aren't really a thing.

(12:51):

And so you get an idea of what is the core stuff that has to get the money, and then where are the places that you can value engineer a little bit. And then you start to get an idea as a producer the more you do it. And there's certain things that you can eat more easily, pull money from, and then other things where it's like it is what it is. You can't always find a deal everywhere. Sometimes, it costs what it costs.

Colton Holmes (13:14):

If and when you've gone over budget or the production has gone over budget, who has that conversation with the client? Is that your responsibility in that scenario?

John Rains (13:22):

Yeah, it's definitely my responsibility. I mean, that's the producer's job is when the job's going, are we staying in scope? And if we're not, what are we doing about it? How are we fixing it? In my world, the term is overage. If we're going over budget because of something that you've requested that wasn't originally in scope, I'm going to come to you with an overage saying, "Hey, love that we want to go underwater all of a sudden. Underwater cameras and rigs are going to cost $10,000 a day for underwater scuba tanks and all this stuff. We can do it. I can get it. Do you have money for it?" And if the answer's no, then it's like, "Hey, I'm not going to just tell you I can go get it and be like, 'I'm over budget now.'" It's like, "You didn't tell me we needed to have that."

(14:00):

The flip side of that though is you could not have any special requests come in. Clients not asking for anything you didn't already say you're doing, you just made a bad bid, you made a bad budget, things are getting more expensive than you can do. Well then that's more of an internal conversation on our end of, how do you start fixing that? I've luckily to this point, never had anything where it's just ballooned and blown up, and become a thing where oh gosh, when I'm said and done, I'm 50,000 over budget, and I couldn't fix it. And I like to work with directors also who understand that you have to yo-yo with a job and there's only so many resources. Because if you start fighting against each other, then it's just an uphill battle at that point, and it's hard to win for everybody.

Colton Holmes (14:39):

So as a producer on these large shoots with these big brands, what kind of pressure does that bring? Is there any pressure that you're feeling working with a Nike, or a Reebok, or a Nissan?

John Rains (14:51):

It's funny. I mean, there's pressure on every job to perform and do it. The pressure I feel though, honestly, it's the jobs that have less resources than they maybe should have, and it's really scrappy. And it's the pressure of, are we going to hit a landmine we didn't know was coming and have to pivot? Because the bigger some of those jobs get, they're really demanding. They really want a lot of stuff. But they typically also come with some of the money and resources needed to do it. You just have to know how to ask for it, know how to plan for it, and not be caught off guard with what's going to come.

(15:23):

And so on those jobs, yes, the big ones sound like a lot of pressure, but I personally experience less pressure on those jobs because I have the resources to pull things off. And you're not giving million budgets to a creative who doesn't know what they're doing. They're going to have a lot of experience. And so the smaller budgets with less experienced creative, those to me inherently have more pressure.

Colton Holmes (15:44):

What about a pressure for things to go well? Whether that's in your hands as a producer, or in the creative hands, with the end goal of getting another project from this brand, or setting yourself up for another brand that might see this work.

John Rains (15:58):

Yeah, I definitely feel the pressure for the job to feel smooth. I want everybody to walk away feeling like that was a great experience. Luckily, I came out the womb pretty confident as a human being. I don't really struggle too much from a confidence point of view of feeling pressure that we can get it done. I always feel like I can get something done. If you're a producer, you probably should have that confidence, or else you're going to fight a whole different set of battles than I fight.

(16:28):

But still, whether I get it done and it's smooth, or whether I get it done and it was a mess, if I get it smooth and everybody was smiling on set, it was smooth but it was really stressful. That to me is the pressure of we want to get it done and get it done where it was enjoyable, versus get it done and it's like everybody was pulling teeth, and everybody's fighting on set, and our department doesn't agree with the lighting department. It's like I want that synergy to exist. And so there's pressure there I guess to know that you're putting the right pieces together in the right way, so that the way you made it also felt good.

Colton Holmes (16:58):

Yeah. How have you learned to put the right pieces in place?

John Rains (17:01):

When I'm working local to where I live in Austin, a lot of reps, you find the crew that vibe with you. My sets, the way they run look a little bit different than other producers, and the sets they run, and their sets are good sets too. Everybody does a little bit different, but the energy and vibe that I hire crew, I want to make sure that everybody fits that same mold, because then they all work really well together.

(17:25):

And I think finding that synergy is a big piece of it when you're traveling in other markets. For me, that's where working with local production help, and my department growing, and having some locals on the ground really helps. Because I rely on them to get a read on what crew work really well together, but I have to make sure I find the right local who's going to vibe with me. That then creates the whole crew working together.

(17:52):

The riskiest, scariest jobs to me, you're always going to a market that I don't know very well, haven't worked a lot in, getting a bunch of random names. And you have no idea what that fit's going to look like. And the smaller the job, the more it matters for sure, just because people have to wear more hats, and you have to have buy-in from the crew to pull things off.

Colton Holmes (18:10):

So you're like the general manager for the baseball team?

John Rains (18:12):

100%.

Colton Holmes (18:13):

Yeah, got it.

John Rains (18:14):

That's a very good comparison. Yeah.

Colton Holmes (18:16):

Okay. So we've talked about all these big projects with really large budgets. But you mentioned to me last week your favorite project that you've worked on was a spec project. Can you talk to me about that? First of all, tell me what a spec project is, and then also tell me about that specific project.

John Rains (18:33):

I mean, a spec project at the end of the day is making a project that doesn't actually have a real client attached to it. And you're making it as a proof of concept for portfolio piece to then go after clients. Not because you're trying to fake that that customer was a customer of yours, but you're trying to prove, "Hey, if this was our customer, look what we could have made. Look how we could have been trusted." Well, all of a sudden you might get someone's attention, and now you do have those things that can create those conversations and create those opportunities.

(19:01):

But when you look at, for me at least, a short film compared to a spec project, you're getting a bunch of crew together to make a passion project, to make something that is somewhat favor based. And you're pulling in all these people who you may have in your network to go make something, that isn't even necessarily for me as a producer. It's more for the director to make for their portfolio. And then if they get a job, then I would come along with them as the producer.

(19:26):

And so I've done multiple. But one of my favorite projects, it's the first thing on our website, is one of those spec projects. Because at the end of the day, you watch it and you're like, "That looks like a really cool Coke commercial." Coke didn't give us that creative. We came up with that. It was his vision. And since then, he's now a full-time commercial director. It's what he does for a living. He segued from being in the production department with me to being a director now. But until you make that project that makes everyone realize, "Oh wow, that looks like a Coke commercial." It's like, yeah. And then other brands now have come along and said, "That does look like a Coke commercial. Now make a Samsung commercial for us now. Now make a Gordon's commercial for us." That director's gone on to put all these other projects into his portfolio now, and Coke is one of many. But it's still the first thing he leads with, because it's still the project he's most proud of. And that budget was $12,000 or whatever it was.

(20:16):

Whereas you actually get a client involved, you pay all the crew the way that a job would really go. That might be 300, $400,000. And so all the crew now are getting hired back on jobs. They're getting opportunities, and so everybody kind of rises with that opportunity. But yeah, it's the beginning of the opportunity to even get a seat at the table.

Colton Holmes (20:37):

What do you think about that project in the final product makes it one of the projects that you're most proud of, and that he's most proud of, the director's most proud of?

John Rains (20:47):

I mean, there's an element of that project where there's no legal team in [inaudible 00:20:53]. Every brand has the things that they really care about. And so when you don't know all those things in a project, there's probably some things you can get away with, and put on screen in a spec that, "Man, this looks really great." Well, they would've never approved that necessarily in village. But when we're sitting there making a spec, that's my job is to sit there, watch, monitor, and try to think of all the things that they would be picky about. No labels turned to the side, because no brand would have their label skewed. You're trying to think of all the things that they would give you notes about in village so it looks proper.

(21:22):

But you kind of get this creative freedom. You get that access to being a narrative director, because it's whatever vision you have. But you have to still live within the guidelines of what would that brand realistically make.

(21:35):

And so if you're going to go do Coke, they're all about family. They're all about sharing. They're all about the positive culture. If you don't create something that fits all those things, then the ad you're going to make in the end is going to be like, yeah, that's a spec. The goal of a spec is that you can't tell it's a spec. Because in the end, it's like I could see that on TV that feels like that brand. If you can tell that it's not as good as that brand would make, the camera quality is kind of crappy, the art doesn't feel right. There's a bunch of blue colors in the spot, which is Pepsi, which they would never let you do. Everyone's going to know that that project doesn't actually work.

(22:08):

And so if you're going to make a spec, you get that opportunity to give your take on it. But you got to make it good enough. And we did. It sells through as a project that looks the part. And so there's that element of, for $12,000, you pull off what usually takes a few hundred. I mean, there's just a certain pride for us in that.

Colton Holmes (22:29):

I would imagine there's a lot of comradery in the crew on something like that, because it is a passion project that you're all trying to lift each other up and build each other up in this project.

John Rains (22:38):

Totally.

Colton Holmes (22:39):

Tell me a little bit about the collaboration on this specific project. What did that look like between you and the director or the crew?

John Rains (22:47):

He had come to me. He had been one of my production supervisors, my right hand for a number of years. And he was like, "Hey, I want to get into directing." And he had done music videos and a couple of fun things, but he hadn't commercially gotten into that world yet. And so whenever he was like, "Yeah, I want to make spec. I want to do something to get started in that world," I was like, "All right, let's do it." I mean, I'm not going to do that for everybody. He was somebody I was just very close to and I wanted to help do that.

(23:12):

It was very collaborative in the sense of whatever you want to try to get done, I'll try to make it happen. But my collaboration looked more like, "Hey, this part of the script, this brand wouldn't do. This would be a flag. This is something they would call out. They wouldn't portray things this way or that way. Art department needs to have these colors, not these colors." I'm playing that client role, but he's pulling in as many favors from friends, and people, and crew as I am. And it's people that we'd hired and worked with a bunch. And it's like all right, let's put those people in an opportunity to help him make something. But the second he's going to get a job, who's going to get the calls back? In every way we can help it in our power, we're going to put those jobs back through the same group.

Colton Holmes (23:52):

Have there been a lot of projects that have come out of that spec project that you've gotten to work on?

John Rains (23:58):

Yeah. I mean, my goal at the end of the day is if I'm going to invest in you as a director, I want to help you. And I'm doing it because I care about the person I'm helping with. I also hope that if you get a directing career going, that when they say, "Hey, do you want to produce the job?" You want me to do it, that's awesome. And if I can sell the job and do that, it's definitely a piece of it. And that's happened.

(24:19):

But it's all about opportunity and creating opportunities for yourself. And if you don't have a certain portfolio piece, you don't have certain relationships, you don't get certain jobs that could have come in. And so it's all just kind of part of building the network.

Colton Holmes (24:35):

And I think that point speaks into why y'all are so proud of that project, because it was friends helping friends and doing something that y'all cared about, and y'all wanted to see each other succeed.

(24:44):

Okay. So we've talked a lot about where you are now. I want to talk about how you got here. So starting off as a freelance videographer, to starting your own production company, to now doing commercial productions. Walk me through that story of how you got to each.

John Rains (24:58):

Well, step one was 13-year-old me, pink shirt, food court. We're meeting my first clients as a DJ.

Colton Holmes (25:07):

Mall food court?

John Rains (25:08):

Mall food court. Mall food court. In eighth grade, went to the school dance. We didn't love the DJ. My friends and I were like, "We're going to fix this." Next year, eighth grade dance happens. They're like, "Cool, career's done." And I was like, "No, this is the beginning of an empire."

(25:22):

And so at the end of the day, I'm not usually the idea guy in most of my stories. I'm the execution guy in most of my stories. And so producing is a very good role for me, because I have ideas to iterate on the main idea that came from somebody else typically. But we did the job, and after that I'm like, "I'm an entrepreneur baby."

(25:40):

And so put it on Craigslist and say, "I'm a wedding DJ," I'm a whatever DJ. And somebody called, because it was for 30 bucks, or whatever price I put up and said, "Meet me in the food court. I'll wear my pink shirt so you don't miss me." And I should have said I was 13 also, or whatever it was at the time.

(25:54):

And so they found me and somehow stuck with it. I guess they had $30, so they had to make it work. And I did that all through college. And then at some point, I'm in music videos and I'm like, "I should make a music video." And so I get a camera, start shooting music videos. I would shoot weddings, I'd shoot events, I'd shoot music videos. And at some point I was like, "All right, I want to find where there's some money in this, and I want to find how to not be the one who has to shoot it, and edit it, and talk to talent," and do all these things that other people think is great, but I think it's the worst part of the job.

(26:24):

And so I realized that the commercial industry was kind of the beginning of where those opportunities and budgets were. And met a few people who were specialists as a DP, as an editor, as a director. And so I was like, "Great, I'll start selling jobs to these people, and we'll work together as a unit." And we were in Florida at the time right after I graduated college, and did that for a few years. Kind of built a company and was selling a production company model. Had a client here in Austin that I would travel for all the time. And that was kind of the beginning of a lot of commercial stuff developing for me.

(26:58):

And ended up, we all wanted to move to Austin and we'd been coming here for projects. And so we relocated here. And at some point, Covid hits and it shakes everybody's world. Which at that point, I had had ideas of doing other things, but I hadn't fully figured out what that meant. And Covid is going to decide for you to some extent what that year was going to look like.

(27:17):

And so I was getting calls for saying, "Hey, can you support our job coming in on the backend and be freelance?" And I had never been asked to do that before in that exact capacity. I hadn't really even thought about doing something like that. And the second I did it, I was like, "Man, this is great." I would much rather be a freelance person than somebody who's always outselling the jobs. That EP hat, it's not my skillset. It's not my thing. I'm a very detail oriented, run the project, keep it on track type of person.

Colton Holmes (27:49):

So Backstory, your production company still exists as a brand?

John Rains (27:54):

As a brand, yeah. Because Backstory, when I moved here, that's when I started it. It was a production company. I had directors, I had a roster. I was selling it, I was getting reps. All of that was my game plan.

(28:05):

And I learned two things. One, I don't like being that side. I want to be able to sell me for me. And maybe that's a little selfish, but I'm a really good producer. I'm not the creative. And when you sell the creatives and you're selling the directors, I can pitch on their behalf. But they're as good as they are and they're as good at pitching as they are. And I can't guarantee that I'm going to get a job, if they don't close the deal on their creative side of things. And so I wanted to have a little bit more direct role in helping and not being part of the creative pitch as much.

(28:38):

And so we got rid of the whole formal production company side and switched it to what a production service company more looks like. And that term's used more internationally where, "Hey, we're headed to Ireland. Let's hire a local company who is backend fixer, production, logistics, but we're bringing the creative side." And so I kind of took that model and I've domesticated it a little bit, where we don't do it quite the exact same way. But it's the same idea of bringing in the production support to aid the creative team who started the job.

Colton Holmes (29:10):

So one thing that you mentioned earlier is the industry is driven by the creatives, not the doers. But you are a doer that wants to be in the creative industry. That just seems to be the thread through your story is you just get it done, right? You have a goal and a mindset, and you just go and do it.

John Rains (29:26):

Right. Yeah.

Colton Holmes (29:28):

Tell me a little bit about how that's played out in the creative industry, being the doer amongst creatives.

John Rains (29:33):

At the end of the day, the creative talks, right? The directors are what sell. The photographers are what sell. The directors are who bid the jobs with the ad agency. They're the ones in the treatment calls. They're the ones creating reference decks, and treatments, and pitches. And then if they get entrusted with the job, on the backend, we're helping make bids and budgets to support them.

(29:53):

But the creatives are ultimately who get awarded jobs. The doers are the ones who then help do the jobs. And that's my role. That's what I am. I creatively problem solve, but I'm not necessarily the most creative person in the world. I take someone's initial idea and I can iterate it to get it done. I can iterate it to make sure we're getting the right version of it done. But the initial concept has never been where my strength lies.

(30:19):

And so within that, I had to find a way to build my network, and my clients, and all those types of things with people where I could put myself advertised in a way where it's like I'm a really good doer and I'm aligning myself with the people who need doers. Versus putting myself in a position which I was as an EP at the beginning, and I was young.

(30:40):

I mean as an EP, the best EPs are really good at sales. They're really good at connecting people. They're really good at identifying what you need and who can I help give you to make something happen. But a lot of them are also 20, 30-year veterans, and they just have a huge network. And whenever you're young, and you don't have a huge network, and you're trying to get indoors, and you're trying to meet the right creatives, it's just a weird spot to be. And I found myself like, "Hey, I may not be the best fit there," but I am a pretty good fit of let me go get the job done. And so I moved over.

Colton Holmes (31:10):

What do you think is your biggest asset as a producer? Is it your network? Is it your experience with budgeting? Is it just your overall experience in the industry? Is it a tool or-

John Rains (31:20):

Yeah, I think obviously, you have to know how to make a calendar. You have to know how to manage a budget. You have to know how to do those things. But every job's going to have a calendar and a budget. And so there's no secret sauce there necessarily. There's levels of being good at it, but it's not like you could or couldn't, like it's a necessity.

(31:40):

I think a lot of what makes you a good producer is if you're working in your home market, it's the network and team that you've built, comradery with, and trust. And you can pull together this group of people to make something, where someone else coming in can't pull together that same group to get the same end product. That's a huge piece of it.

(32:00):

And then I think the other end product is just understanding you have to be able to break down what the project's trying to get done, what the things are that are the truest, highest priorities, and what the things are that could be the biggest distractions. And making sure that you're allocating resources, whether it's time, money, crew, whatever, to get the important stuff dealt with first and best, and not the thing that comes up that everybody thinks is a fire drill, and this has come up in a meeting, and everybody's freaking out over what color purse are we going to put on the talent?

(32:33):

But at the end of the day, the purse actually gets sat on the ground. And in the scene, the purse didn't really matter. But if you get sidetracked, you could put way too much effort into the wrong thing. And so you have to keep everybody focused on the things that actually matter. That I think is-

Colton Holmes (32:47):

And I think it speaks again back to your experience on that... Let's just go back to the Coca-Cola spec project. The investment of people that you care about and want to see succeed in building a network, and being able to bring all those people into the right project, and be able to have synergy and extract the best work from this team that is the right team for this project.

John Rains (33:10):

I think the way you do that, there's a lot of pieces to it. There's no magic pill necessarily. But phase one is when you budget projects, are you budgeting properly so people are paid properly? So they're paid rates that are current with the industry, or are you the person who always comes in, and undercuts everybody, and wants a deal, and wears everybody out?

(33:31):

So now everybody has a good rate, hopefully. For me, that's kind of like a non-negotiable, and I tell that to people who bring me into jobs. It's like, "If your rates aren't right, I'm going to fix the rates."

(33:40):

But the next side is how are you to work with? Are you enjoyable to work with? Are you always yelling at everybody or are you collaborative? Are you supportive of people? There's so many elements to the way you work with building that network, with how you treat people and support people. And that whole dynamic becomes a part of how you build that environment where I don't really have to have rate conversations. I don't have to have budget scope conversations with a lot of the crew I work with all that often, because we know we're on the same page, and we know we're going to treat each other right. And if this one's a little bit tighter, this is the exception, not the norm. And so that's something I try to make sure we keep within check.

Colton Holmes (34:19):

So social media has started changing the landscape of the way consumers engage with advertisements and-

John Rains (34:28):

To say the least.

Colton Holmes (34:29):

Yeah. I mean, tell me how that's affected your role as a producer and maybe how you attack projects or even just what projects look like now.

John Rains (34:35):

Yeah. I mean, there's not a project that doesn't need to shoot a vertical crop, and a 4:5 crop, and a 16 by... I mean everything nowadays is going on every platform in every way. And what's interesting is at the beginning it was, "Hey, take the broadcast ad, make it vertical, and stick it on TikTok." Well, then you start to realize you put that broadcast ad on TikTok, and no one engages with it. You need to make content for the platform. And so now every campaign's evolved to you have a TikTok concept, you have an Instagram concept, you have all these different concepts to make all the media play work in all the places it needs to go. Doesn't mean you have more days, doesn't mean you have more time. Doesn't mean you have the talent for longer than you already planned. So now all of a sudden, how do you start fitting everything into a day?

(35:16):

So the question becomes within whatever you have, how do you give each asset enough time? How do you give each asset enough respect? There's been a lot of shoots where you're shooting video and photo also needs to get done at the same time. But photo, "Hey, just shoot over my shoulder. Just get it done." It's like, okay, well some jobs that works. There's other jobs where it's like, well, photo needs time to get what their assets are for this campaign to work, but how do we share a set? How do we share a spot? But that's an ask on everything now.

(35:43):

And so the whole social game... And there's campaigns that are only going to social now, whereas that used to not so much be a thing. And so every job, it's a component now. And there's more content needed because there's more platforms to put content on, but there's not necessarily more budget to make all the extra content all the time. And so as budgets get a little tighter, or the ask of things has to fit within the same budget that last year didn't have a social ask as well, it's just how do you allocate the resources, again, to make everything that's being requested but also not be unrealistic?

Colton Holmes (36:16):

Yeah. Has that been fun for you to figure that new dynamic out or has it been-

John Rains (36:20):

Go ask commercial producers how fun the photo social content is, and you're going to generally hear the answer is no. I honestly do enjoy when there is a unique concept that we are making something, and everybody from the beginning understands we have to go make this separate TikTok script, and we're going to give three hours of our day to make this. What's really hard is the jobs that say, "Hey, we're here to make this broadcast. It's going to take the full three days to do it. Also, we need a bunch of photo stuff, and we don't only have time for them, we know. But figure it out." Unfortunately, there's campaigns where you don't find out until later that there's other components, or they're going to bring a social unit that's separate from the main team to do that, and you just don't know that that's coming yet. And that becomes challenging, because how do you factor that in? But the jobs where you know it from the beginning, it is fun. Because it's its whole own thing that you can plan and build it accordingly to make it go well.

Colton Holmes (37:14):

Yeah. Talking about challenges and things that are frustrating, in your experience, you and a friend of ours, Keaton started a rental house company in Austin called CONVOY. Talk to me about where that came from, why you built it.

John Rains (37:31):

In Florida where I lived, there was no market originally. So I would just buy equipment at times. The things that I couldn't borrow from friends who also owned stuff, there was no rental market there.

(37:40):

And when I moved here, it was like, cool, I own some stuff. May as well use it, but I don't own traditional stuff. I don't own full packages. I don't own the expensive lights, I just own the basic stuff. Because also, the jobs kept growing, which meant the lights and things you need on the job were growing. And so I was growing out of what I had.

(37:57):

And Covid hits, we end up on a job together for four months straight the entire summer doing streaming jobs. And we sat there talking and he had a vision of, "Yeah, I've been getting into some equipment trying to formalize it more." And I was like, "Yeah, I've got equipment. You've used it before. It could be better. We could figure this out together."

(38:13):

And eventually after months of sitting there and both of us kind of using Covid as a time to figure out what we wanted to do with this equipment we both had, we realized we should be doing it together.

(38:23):

Because he's a gaffer so he leads the lighting department. I'm a producer, I lead the production department. I have certain needs, he has certain needs. We have mutual needs on jobs where we're working together, and we could service that ourselves. And so it started with let's just combine forces and formalize what we already are doing. And then it just kept growing and it kept scaling. And so now it's turned into a rental fleet of 10 vehicles, and a warehouse full of equipment,, and we're still growing it. That's the goal long term is it's a staple in the Austin industry here.

Colton Holmes (38:53):

It also gives you, I would assume maybe not a leg up, but it makes your job as a producer a little bit more efficient, because you have control over this entire aspect of your job, right?

John Rains (39:03):

Yeah. It's hard to go over budget to yourself, which is very convenient. And there's jobs that come in, that are even beyond the scope of what we can handle. I have a job coming up in a month that I don't even know if anybody in the state can handle. There's jobs where that happens, because this isn't LA. We try to do as best we can.

(39:20):

And when we started the company, there was other rentals that were here, but we wanted to set the top of the market. Because on my jobs, I want to give people an experience that makes them think Austin's a destination city to come shoot, and it's equal to that of New York and LA, which to some extent I can control, to some extent I can't.

(39:38):

And so when we started the company, we were like, "If we're going to go for it, we're not going to be another option anywhere from mid to low tier of what we're bringing. We want to set the upper tier of what this city can have." And I want that to become part of the Austin reputation. I want everybody to start using it as much as they want. It's not just for us, because if everybody's using it, even if it's not my job, it's creating a reputation for Austin as a destination.

(40:01):

And so that became our focus, and I obviously use it on my own jobs. It's a really helpful resource, and that's where that always pulls in for what I'm doing. But like I said it's, "Oh gosh, we have to squeeze in a couple extra things." I can make my budgets work, because I'm not going to screw myself.

Colton Holmes (40:19):

So does that give you a leg up against other competition out there?

John Rains (40:23):

I mean, it's a good question. And to some extent yes, to some extent no. Because the other people who work with me a lot in town that do what I do, they're customers of mine, and I give them the same deals. It's like I want their reputation in Austin to be that you can come in with good realistic budgets, but when you have that, you're going to get it done. You're not going to all of a sudden just be like, "The vendors here are so difficult, and there's only one person who has mediocre stuff and it's super expensive. So why do we shoot there?" I want everybody to walk away with the same experience.

(40:52):

And so the same way that I can solve my own problems, it's like I'm here to solve their problems too. And so I wouldn't say, my mindset is definitely not to get a leg up over anybody else to get more deals than them, and work things, and to kind of monopolize by any means. But my mindset's definitely much more in the idea of can I problem solve a lot quicker, because I don't have to ask a vendor to get on board with what my problem is, because I control fixing the problem? Yeah. From that perspective, I can streamline things in a way that it's part of the strategy, I guess.

Colton Holmes (41:24):

It's interesting perspective of you attacking that with the mindset of being a force for a production culture in Austin.

John Rains (41:32):

It's probably the biggest part of the mission, to be honest. I mean, it's the same way I talked to the other producer people in town too. It's like we talk about rates. It's like if we dictate what the market rates are, fair rates. I mean, we're not sitting here saying, "We're going to come in and just set a rate that's the highest in the industry." Our crew here work just as hard as the crew that work in LA and work in New York. They've worked on jobs just as big of scale, budgets the same scale.

(41:58):

Now, there may be more volume in a city like LA that has so many resources and volume of shoots that happen there. But the crew here who are in the exact same position doing the exact same thing deserve the exact same livable wage that they're getting. They shouldn't be cheaper just because they're in another market.

(42:14):

And we are one of the busiest commercial markets, because Austin's a cool destination city. It's an artsy city. We have weather. Good luck shooting up north in this time of year. That's just part of what you do, why people come to Austin.

(42:27):

And so we all talk. It's like, "Yeah, if we don't undercut rates here, then this market is sustainable." People here respect everybody. The crew here stay here because it's livable to live here. If the crew get undercut, guess what they're going to do? Eventually, they're going to get sick of it, they're going to leave. Then who do you put on your jobs? How do you get jobs done with technicians that are any good at what they do? If the equipment's not any good... You have to create the sustainable culture, and I want to rise the whole thing. It's like I want everybody's experience here to be like it is as good or better than somewhere else. Versus, "Yeah, when you go there, it's the bootleg version of getting a commercial done."

(43:03):

Otherwise, it's like there are other rental companies out there. There have been in Austin, in other cities. We're not reinventing the wheel and renting lights that other people don't already rent. It's the packaging of how we do it, and the way we do it, and the big picture of all the things that tie together with the way that I'm approaching it, that it's like that's the reason we're doing it.

Colton Holmes (43:23):

So between CONVOY, your commercial production service of Backstory, and you being a commercial producer, you've got a lot on your plate. And I imagine delegating is a big necessity between all of those things.

John Rains (43:36):

You learn it one way or another.

Colton Holmes (43:39):

Tell me a little bit about your philosophy of delegating, and any advice that you would give to a creative out there or just anyone in the industry that might be resisting the delegation. Because I know for me, that's been one of the hardest things for me is giving up a part of my process, because I trust me. And it's hard for me to trust other people.

John Rains (44:01):

I'm sure somebody out there would say delegating is easy. I don't think delegating ever becomes super easy. But the beginning is the hardest to delegate. And I mean for me, it was almost out of necessity that I started to delegate at the beginning, just from volume of things to keep up with. But I sat down very practically. I'm a very logical person, and I said, "Great, all these things fill up my day and I get overwhelmed with the amount of things I have to do. Which thing do I not like doing? Which thing am I not skilled at doing?"

(44:30):

And that even goes back to my videographer days, getting out of it. It's like I don't like talking to talent. I don't like editing. I don't like shooting. It's like I wanted to do the thing I liked doing, until I could bring people in to make it where that's the only thing I do. Then I didn't have to worry about delegating until I had too much of just that to do. And then I had to continue the delegation process.

(44:50):

And so now between the rental house and production staff, I've got teams on both side. And we're pretty niched. I don't do all the things I don't like doing. Pretty much everything I focus on and even my team focuses on are things that I enjoy doing. I've niched down to where we don't do things we don't like doing, and we don't touch post-production. I just am out of those fields of this in general now.

(45:11):

But within that, the delegation comes down to me to entrusting people with a lot of autonomy. It's up to them to have work ethic. It's up to them to bring the A game. I'm going to tell you I expect the work ethic. That's going to be an expectation. It's not like it's an optional work ethic thing, but it's up to you to decide you want to bring it. And if you don't, then probably not going to stay working together. And if you do, then I'll keep entrusting you.

(45:37):

And so it's like I give people the platform to show me that I can delegate to them. And if they step up, then they realize what that looks like. And if they don't, then I don't entrust them with as much. And out of necessity, I have to have the team support at this point. But it's also, you're never 100% out of anything. It's 80% or whatever I can to have them handle the majority of it. And then I'm keeping eyes for quality control and whatever else.

Colton Holmes (46:04):

And I think it's hard to get to the point where you realize that delegation is going to lead to a better product, because you are handing things off to people who are better at that part of the production than you, or it frees you up to really focus in on the important things, rather than being stuck in the mud on these things that are keeping you away from the thing that you're best at. And so it's really hard to get out of that mindset, and just trust people with things, and ultimately lead to a better product.

John Rains (46:32):

The only way to do it is to just do it. I mean, that's like my motto for life, right? It's like you can want to get whatever you want in life, but no one's going to give it to you. No one's going to give you somebody that you can fully trust and delegate to. No one's going to give you a qualified worker. No one's going to give you a job. It's like you have to set yourself up to create those things, and you have to just kind of freaking go for it, and rip the bandaid off, and see what happens. And eventually, it either works or it doesn't. And then you continue pivoting. And if you get stuck overthinking it then-

Colton Holmes (47:04):

And that's why Nike was a great client for you, just do it. Right?

John Rains (47:06):

Yeah. That's a-

Colton Holmes (47:07):

Bad joke. Just do it. All right, so we've talked a lot about how you've gotten to where you are today, and all the experiences that have led to that. And so taking a look back at step one of DJing in a pink shirt, meeting in the mall to where you are now, what do you think was one of the biggest mistakes that you made that you maybe learned the biggest lesson from, or one of the biggest challenges you faced that affected the trajectory of your career?

John Rains (47:33):

I'll give two answers to this, because I feel like there's a specific story that comes to mind. But there's also a general career takeaway that I still battle with that is probably the root answer to a lot of things. Diving off of specifically the delegation topic, did a job a few years ago. Admittedly, was not really given full scope of what was going to ultimately get asked for. And by the time I got that, it was like you're so in deep on something, that you don't even know how to come up for air. And when I look back at that job, I had so much on my plate, could have brought in more help, and I wasn't.

(48:11):

And it's because whenever you're so in the thick of it, it's hard to just look out and realize you need more support. But on that job, we ended up flying in 60 clients between Europe and US here. The shoot, it was a multimillion dollar shoot. We had tons of people there. I was managing 30 PA drivers, 30 rental vehicles, runs, coordinate... I had so much going on within that shoot, but I didn't know all that was coming until it starts coming. And the next thing you know, why am I still booking flights for people? Why am I still telling a PA what time to pick up somebody? It's like I can delegate so many of those tasks. But whenever you start with something, I just started to clench too much on that job, and I don't usually do that. But it almost was like a life support moment of if I just control it, I'll fix it.

(48:55):

But then all of a sudden, I'm working 19-hour days. And little things are slipping, and it's because I just am not equipping people to help me. And so I learned the hard way on that job you can't do that again.

(49:06):

And so I've made a point to learn through what delegating didn't look like. Even after having a team that I could delegate to, I just didn't very well in that job. I learned a lot there, that that's not going to happen to me again. At least I hope in the way that that did.

(49:21):

The root I would say though when I think about my career as a whole is that the times that I look back and cringe the most at the way I handled things, or the way a job went, or the way something went down is when I start to flip the mindset of working with the client to working against the client. The client could be the director, the client could be the art director, the client could be the actual client themselves. But in general, it's whoever I'm trying to work and collaborate with. And sometimes, you just don't agree on things. And it winds up where this person wants this, this person wants this. And you're naturally at a standoff.

(50:01):

Ultimately though, the reason you disagree is to get to the same end product that everybody wants to look a certain way and go a certain way. You're just disagreeing on the execution of the elements to get there. And I feel like every time I end up regretting the way something went, it's because I'll get caught up in the example of the moment of the thing that we're not agreeing on, but lose sight of the fact that we're not fighting over whether we should do the commercial, or do the project, or do whatever. We just disagree that the blue tablecloth and the purple tablecloth have different value here.

(50:34):

And it's like you all of a sudden step back and you're like, "How did that little thing become such a big thing?" And it's not that the tablecloth was going to make or break it. But the way that you talk, the way you treat people, the tone, all of that starts factoring in. And it's like, "Man, I handled that terribly," and I'll go back and I'll regret, and it'll sit with me, and I regret. And it's like I do care that we made the right decision to fit the product. But the way the decision got made, I just didn't love sometimes. And I'm a loud person, I'm a big person. I have a strong presence. And so my good-natured, well-intended goal with some of those things can sometimes be misconstrued into, "I'm going to dominate the decision here. I'm going to overpower, and we're going to push this direction." Or, "We love that you want this, we don't care. We went this way."

(51:19):

And I try to watch that, because that's the thing that I transparently know that can always go better. And I've had instances where I wish it went better. And so that for me is the thing that I'm always trying to keep in mind and avoid going that direction, and realizing what everyone's here for, and we're all trying to get to the same thing.

Colton Holmes (51:40):

Yeah. Well dude, it's been really great chatting with you. I've loved this conversation. And for those listening, where can they find you, or Backstory or CONVOY online?

John Rains (51:51):

Yeah. I mean, I feel like Instagram these days is our biggest platform. We don't TikTok, at least not at our businesses. But backstory.us is our Instagram, convoy_atx is our Instagram. And those, they've got a good presence. I'm not the most active on social media myself, but through those entities is where my presence lives online. And I also have a site johnrains.net, so anybody who ever needs anything, welcome to reach out.

Colton Holmes (52:17):

Sweet. Well dude, thanks for joining us and taking the time to just share your insight, and your experiences, and all the wisdom you have around the industry.

John Rains (52:26):

Happy to do it. Thanks for having me.

Colton Holmes (52:28):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out rev.com/podcast. That's rev.com/podcast.

(52:42):

If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to rate and subscribe in order to stay up to date with the latest episodes and help other creatives find us. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft.

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