Mark Watters

Mark Watters (00:00):

And yet we react to it. And I hope they never figure out that mystery.

Kendell Kelton (00:05):

It was watched by an estimated 3.5 billion viewers.

Mark Watters (00:09):

It's like their child suddenly said mama for the first time.

Kendell Kelton (00:13):

And then all of a sudden you find yourself touring the world.

Mark Watters (00:17):

And you play it for them. And they go, "This is not working." And so there I was sitting with the two guys that created Cirque du Soleil and world-renowned choreographers and designers and whatnot. And there I am and you can't put that genie back in the bottle.

Kendell Kelton (00:34):

I'm Kendell Kelton, and today I'm your host on The Rough Draft. In this episode, I sit down with Mark Watters. A six-time Emmy Award-winning composer and conductor, renowned for his work in film, television, video games, global tours such as Star Wars and concert and major events like the Olympics. Mark's career spans iconic Disney classics and collaborations with artists like John Legend, Mary J. Blige, and Beyonce.

(00:59):

In addition, Mark serves as an academic leader at the prestigious Eastman University in New York. Join us today as we discuss his creative process, how to embrace technology while guarding authenticity and the deeply emotional resonance of music across all content mediums. All right. Here's my conversation with Mark Watters.

(01:29):

I have a four-year-old son, and I've begun noticing just how deeply he responds to music and musical cues. And it's pretty remarkable to witness just how music is already shaping his little deep emotional connection even at such a young age. And an example of this was we recently took him to Disney World and we went to see the live-action performance of Indiana Jones, which in retrospect may have been a poor parenting decision because there was some scary moment there.

(02:04):

But it was really neat, because that famous, the Raiders March, that famous score that (singing), that as soon as that came on, his entire being just lit up with wonder and he was so excited. And I actually have a recording of it on my phone and watching him and then watching everybody else in the audience, adults, people my age, older, folks who have seen it a dozen times, everyone is still feeling the same thing.

(02:36):

The second that sound comes on, you can just feel it in your soul, that excitement. And then a few scenes later is the big boulder coming down and that nervous anxiety, you hear the trumpets and the horns flare up and looking at Wyatt, he's so nervous, what's going to happen to Indy?

Speaker 3 (02:58):

Oh, my god. [inaudible 00:03:00]

Kendell Kelton (03:03):

And again, same thing, everyone around, myself included, has that nervous, excitement, energy, even though, spoiler alert, we know what's going to happen. We know he's going to make it at the last minute. But it was so neat to witness that for the first time through his eyes, but then also to realize that impact of sound and music and those moments.

(03:24):

And so as somebody who has spent a career pulling that tether between emotion and music and trying to find those special moments. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you on your approach to finding that connection. Because again, music can change things in a second emotionally for folks. So I'd love to hear your take.

Mark Watters (03:51):

Well, again, I think I'm going to just be repeating some of the things that you just said. Music is incredibly important to conveying a story, and because film is a two-dimensional entity. And so by adding music, it is built into us that we respond to this.

(04:13):

And I will say it is a mystery to me why we do respond. What is it? I mean what is music? It's just a vibration. It's different pitches vibrating, and yet we react to it, and I hope they never figure out that mystery. I hope it always remains this unknown, because it always should be a creative journey to find those right vibrations that make that happen so that when you hear that wonderful theme from Indiana Jones that John Williams wrote, it fits that character and that scene and that moment and it brings back... this is why film music concerts are so popular because we can hear that music and it takes us back to that experience of seeing the film.

(04:57):

And now we've taken it even to the next level because now orchestras are performing the score live to picture with the movie playing, but the orchestra is playing the music live. And so we're getting that visceral sensation of the music being performed right there in front of us, not recorded and mixed in, but right there in front of us. And it is so exciting.

(05:18):

And I just think it's a wonderful advancement in what we've done. I mean I was at such an impressionable age when John Williams became a star with... I graduated from college the summer that Star Wars came out, and that was followed by ET and the other Star Wars films and Close Encounters and Indiana Jones. And I fell in love with his music and that's what inspired me to pursue this right then and there. And I had the pleasure of telling John this, "You're the reason I am doing this." And he was very sweet about it, and he was very touched.

Kendell Kelton (05:56):

Instances where you had that deep emotional connection with music that influenced you. I mean you obviously just said it with John Williams and Star Wars, and then all of a sudden you find yourself touring the world. Are there specific moments and specific pieces of music that you would say still to this day has that emotional resonance?

Mark Watters (06:16):

The first time I can remember being moved by the music in a movie, I was 14, I think, 13 or 14 when the 1968 production of Romeo and Juliet came out directed by Franco Zeffirelli stars Olivia Hussey and Leonard Whiting. It's a gorgeous movie, and the score is by Nino Rota, who was the Italian composer who wrote the score to the Godfather, very famous Italian film composer.

(06:48):

And the melodies and the settings, just like what you were saying with Indiana Jones, it brought the movie to life for me. And I remember reacting to the music. I mean I was playing guitar at the time and I was envisioning being a rock and roll guitar player, but this music was just so gorgeous and so fit the movie. And I had no idea that I would ever pursue this as a career, that was way beyond... Even when I was in college and studying music, I was a saxophone major and I was studying jazz and classical music.

(07:28):

I didn't have any inkling at all that I would pursue film composing and TV composing as a profession. That happened subsequently after going to a few more John Williams concerts and movies and whatnot. And we don't have to get into this, but I mean I took a course, a beginner course in films scoring just purely as a lark. I didn't think that anything would come from it. I could have easily taken a watercolor course or a horticulture course or something.

(08:00):

It was at the UCLA extension, which was a school of continuing education. And I'm so grateful that I took it. It was this introduction to film scoring, and it was taught by a wonderful man who allowed me to write a piece of music for an episode of Hawaii Five-O. And it just changed my life, because I had that moment of where music and visual come together and become one. And it makes the visual just come to life in a way that it wouldn't if you just sat there.

(08:30):

I mean I love going into schools, and I've done this several times where I've played scenes from TV shows, and when it's with young kids, it's usually a cartoon and I play it without music. And it's amazing how six-year-olds will look at it and like, "Wow. It's just not the same."

Kendell Kelton (08:51):

Yeah.

Mark Watters (08:51):

And then I'll play the same scene again with the music and they're like, "Oh, my God. That's it." And then I'll play it with the wrong music. I'll play it with music that's totally different than what it's supposed to be, and they totally react to it. I mean it is built into us as our DNA that we react to this. And it's just a wonderful thing that we've only discovered this as far as film is concerned in the last hundred years.

Kendell Kelton (09:18):

Have you ever come across that in your career where perhaps the music just didn't work that you were [inaudible 00:09:26]

Mark Watters (09:24):

Are you talking about my music or somebody else music?

Kendell Kelton (09:27):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yours or both.

Mark Watters (09:29):

Well, there's two answers to that. I tell my students here at the Eastman School of Music that I love when I see a score that's not working. I just love it.

Kendell Kelton (09:40):

Oh, really?

Mark Watters (09:40):

Because it's encouraging to me. And I like to-

Kendell Kelton (09:45):

How so?

Mark Watters (09:46):

Well, because it just goes to show that there are people out there doing this that need more training, and usually it's the filmmaker. It's not necessarily the composer. I am always amazed when film schools do not teach music and not making music, but how do you tell a composer what it is that you should be telling them to get the score that you want? The language that you said. You don't have to talk music language, but you need to talk storytelling language.

(10:19):

And then the other thing is that there's never just one way to score something. There's always an interpretation. And we've all had, every person that's done this for any length of time has had instances where you write something and you're just absolutely certain it's going to just blow them away. And you bring it in and you play it for them, and they go, "This is not working."

(10:44):

And then it's like, "Whoa." And this gets into these are lessons that every composer has dealt with since the '20s when composers first started putting music to film. How do you handle that? Because you can't get insulted, you can't get personal. Like, "How dare you do that? I wasted all this time and now you're telling me it's not working." You can't do that.

(11:09):

I often use the analogy of when if you had somebody come and redesign your kitchen and you tell them exactly what it is you want and they do it and you said, "No. That's not working. Can you do it again?" And you don't pay them anymore and you don't give them any more time, but they've got to redo the kitchen. That doesn't happen.

Kendell Kelton (11:26):

No. It doesn't.

Mark Watters (11:27):

But in film music, that is the way it goes. I mean I've literally had cues that I've rewritten seven or eight times, because it just wasn't working for them. And it's very encouraging then when I hear other composers... And composers far more successful than me talk about this. And John Williams, I've heard John Williams talk about this. I mean to be a film composer, to be a media composer, whether it be video games or television or film, you have to really love collaborating.

(11:59):

I tell my students, "Look, if you want to write whatever you want to write, be a concert composer, be a rock and roll songwriter. But if you want to be a media composer, you have to love the idea of collaborating with somebody where somebody is giving you a direction and you then complete it."

Kendell Kelton (12:18):

Well, so let's talk a little bit then about your creative process, because I mean as you were just explaining, you can put so much time and effort into something for it to never ever come to fruition. In those instances, how do you move through them? What are the things you try to lean into or learn from? How do you ensure that it doesn't take too much of a hit against your ego? Especially for people coming into this field, which is incredibly complicated and competitive, how do you keep pushing through?

Mark Watters (12:53):

I suppose the good outweighs the bad, the thrill of writing something, and when you play it for the director and suddenly their efforts now have been completed and fulfilled because music really completes the storytelling process, because it comes at the end. It's one of the last things that's added to the film, and they've been looking at it for weeks and months and whatever without it. Maybe they have a temp score, but when the real score finally is put to it, and it's like their child suddenly said mama for the first time. It's just like, "Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for doing that." That is such a fulfilling step because I love collaborating. I really do.

Kendell Kelton (13:53):

Let's actually talk about that a bit, because I don't think people quite understand what happens behind the scenes and when somebody like yourself is brought into a project. And so can you walk through that process of when you are approached and typically that rhythm that you experience. Maybe we'll use film or if there's something specific that you think is a little bit more interesting like video gaming.

Mark Watters (14:19):

Well, it's slightly different, but I mean usually because music is in the post-production phase of it, the editing and the ADR, the sound and all that is done after the piece has been filmed, the lesser talented filmmakers don't think about music until then. The talented filmmakers are thinking about it when the script is being written. They will write scenes knowing that music is going to do this.

(14:48):

I mean one of my favorite scenes, and it's a movie that I'm sure you've seen. The ending of the Good and the Bad and the Ugly, when they're standing, the three of them in that cemetery, and they're just staring each other down, and it goes on forever and ever and ever and the music is building and building. Imagine what that scene would look like with no music. And that's what the filmmaker and the actors were seeing.

(15:14):

The filmmaker, Sergio Leone, was so brilliant with music that he knew that his composer, [foreign language 00:15:22], would fill that up and just fill the emotion of the scene. That's great filmmaking when the filmmaker knows how music... Steven Spielberg and John Williams, he just knows. They'll film this scene knowing that music is going to just take it to another level.

(15:44):

I hear stories of filmmakers bringing composers to the set and having them walk around the set and absorb, because it is a creative process and you need to get those wheels going. And so many times I've been, particularly if it's a score that is being replaced, and that happens more often than you would think, this composer that's brought in to replace the thrown out score has very little time to do it.

(16:15):

And so they've got to suddenly come up with a creative plan. What is going to be the DNA of the score? And then forget about what notes to choose and what instruments are going to play them. What kind of music do we want to do? And if I can make a break, hang on. I'm going to pull a book out just to give you an example.

Kendell Kelton (16:42):

Okay.

Mark Watters (16:44):

I love this book.

Kendell Kelton (16:45):

What is it? Torn Music: Rejected Film Scores. Ooh.

Mark Watters (16:50):

Look how thick this book is.

Kendell Kelton (16:52):

I like it. I like it.

Mark Watters (16:54):

It is all stories of scores and scores that are famous movies, big movies that this big time composer wrote it and it didn't work and they brought somebody else in. And it is-

Kendell Kelton (17:06):

But that's so funny because everyone thinks that if you're like Hans Zimmer or John Williams, you're going to succeed every single time.

Mark Watters (17:13):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (17:14):

And that's not true.

Mark Watters (17:14):

No. It's not. Every major composer, with the exception of John Williams, has had a score thrown out. In fact, the saying is you haven't made it to the big time until you've had a score thrown out.

Kendell Kelton (17:27):

I love that.

Mark Watters (17:27):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (17:28):

I love that. Have you had a score thrown out?

Mark Watters (17:31):

No. I've not had a whole score thrown out, but I have had a couple of cues that when I saw the film or watched the TV show and suddenly there was no music there, and I go, "What happened?" They go, "Yeah. We didn't really like that cue."

Kendell Kelton (17:44):

Wow.

Mark Watters (17:44):

"Oh, okay." And a lot of times a music editor can doctor something together and put something in, and that happens all the time.

Kendell Kelton (17:54):

So I want to talk about what I know when we were chatting pre-recording about something that was really, really special for you, a collaboration and an effort that you are very proud of, and that's the summer '96 Olympics, which you worked on in addition to the winter '02 Olympics.

(18:16):

And a fun fact that I was reading about the '96 Olympics. It was watched by an estimated, the opening ceremony, in particular. It was watched by an estimated 3.5 billion viewers worldwide, and that's in 1996. And that was the most watched TV event only until two years ago when Queen Elizabeth had passed. And so that more tuned in for her funeral. But to hold that for so long and to be a part of a moment like that, I'd like us to spend some time just talking about how that opportunity came about for you, in particular, and anything unique about the process you went through for that?

Mark Watters (19:00):

Well, I got recommended to the producer, a man named Don Mischer, who was producing the opening and closing ceremonies by the man who was the administrative head of the Atlanta Symphony, which was going to be the host symphony for the show. And this was over a year before the games. And Don happened to be at, I think a reception and a man named Mitch Gershenfeld was talking to him and Don got to talking about the music and how the symphony would be a part of it.

(19:34):

And Don mentioned to him, he said, "We're going to need a different music director than I've normally used in the past because we're going to need... there's a lot of storytelling in the opening ceremonies, we're going to be telling history and stories and whatnot and I think I'm going to need to get a different music director." Because he had used a particular person for many of his projects.

(19:56):

And Mitch had conducted a production of Babes in Toyland that I had redone all the arrangements for. I didn't compose anything. This is Victor Herbert's famous operetta. But they had wanted to give it a facelift and a modernization, and I put in a lot of storytelling in it that was part of the story. And he was very impressed with that. So he told Don about it.

(20:23):

So I got asked to travel to... I get this call out of nowhere. I'd never even heard of him.

Kendell Kelton (20:27):

Wow.

Mark Watters (20:28):

And I get this call out of nowhere to travel to Atlanta one year before the opening ceremonies, and they only wanted me there to sit around the table with all the other creative heads and offer ideas. That was it. Just if something comes into your head, just tell them.

(20:42):

And so there I was sitting with the two guys that created Cirque du Soleil and world-renowned choreographers and designers and whatnot. And there I am, because I don't know how to keep my mouth shut. I started throwing out ideas. How about this? How about this? And let's do that.

(20:59):

And I had a keyboard with me, and in my hotel room I came up with this neat chord that if you took the five Olympic rings and turned them on their side and put it on a music staff, it creates a chord. And I played this chord and they were like, "Wow. This is so cool." So-

Kendell Kelton (21:16):

How did you come up with that idea?

Mark Watters (21:17):

I don't know. It just kind of popped me like, "Hmm, these look like music notes. How about I turned it on my side." And it was... That's the chord.

(21:30):

And I get a call a week later. I mean I came home, I thought, "Boy, that was fun. What a great opportunity. I got to meet all these people and I could...

Kendell Kelton (21:39):

Yeah.

Mark Watters (21:40):

It'd be fun to see the show." And I get a call a week later and said, "We'd like you to be the co-music director of the show." And I was like, "Pinch me.

Kendell Kelton (21:49):

That's amazing.

Mark Watters (21:50):

I must be dreaming." So the gentleman that was going to be the co-music director, he got really busy with something else. I don't know how you get so busy that you walk away from the Olympics, but he completed all the arranging that he was going to do, and he went on to something else. So when it came time to actually recording and doing the show, I was the sole music director on that, and then the closing ceremonies.

(22:13):

I mean there was a very important piece in the opening ceremonies. It was called the Run Through Time. It's a very important piece from the opening ceremonies where they were going to have runners coming out with flags from each city that had hosted the games, because the Atlanta Olympics was the hundredth anniversary of the modern Olympic Games. So it was called the Centennial Games.

(22:48):

And my music was supposed to capture the feeling of running and then build and build so that when it finally got to "1996 Atlanta" and the crowd would just go crazy and there'd be this big moment. And the timing that I had to go with, I mean was Don standing on a track recording his voice saying when each city would come in and there was a rhythm to it.

(23:12):

And then I went running and got, "Okay. What kind of music goes with running? Okay." I came up with that, and I managed to put that chord in that I was mentioning, the Olympic ring chord. That's in that piece. And it worked so well that we ended up using a version of it in the closing ceremonies. But it was a great process of collaboration but it all came about, I'm at these meetings where I'm just there as an advisor and I'm standing at the craft service table getting a cup of coffee, and Don walks by, and I just said, "Gosh, Don, that explanation about that segment where the run through time, boy, that is going to be an amazing, amazing segment." He goes, "Why don't you write the music for it?" And then he just walked away. And I was like, "Really?"

Kendell Kelton (24:01):

Sure. Why not? Sure.

Mark Watters (24:02):

Okay.

Kendell Kelton (24:03):

Let me get on that right away.

Mark Watters (24:06):

I mean bless his heart, he saw something in me that allowed me to really grow and develop.

Kendell Kelton (24:13):

That's amazing.

Mark Watters (24:14):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (24:16):

Well, so I want to transition into talking about just the changes that your industry has had over the last several decades or years, months even. Technology has been a huge topic within your industry, within the creative industry overall. In terms of how do you guard your creative authenticity while embracing things like AI? So I would love to hear your take on the things that you have witnessed and how maybe you approach new technologies and the impact it might have on your creative endeavors.

Mark Watters (24:58):

Well, when I first started, it was before computers entered into it. It was all pencil and paper and you created on paper, and then you had to know well enough that it would sound proper when you brought an orchestra in to play it. It was this moment of truth when the orchestra played it for the first time.

(25:22):

Since then, we have literally a music technology language, MIDI, musical instrument digital implementation has been created, and it allows us to be able to input things into a computer and sculpt it and change it and hear what it's going to sound like. And it's been an amazingly wonderful tool, but it requires a composer to completely change.

(25:49):

I don't use a pencil and paper anymore. I compose directly into the computer. And that was a huge step for me to have to, to be able to do that because I'm not a great pianist, I'm far from it. I would never play in public. And I think my little rendition-

Kendell Kelton (26:08):

I have a hard time believing that considering you have your piano right next to you.

Mark Watters (26:13):

I mean, literally, there's not a day that goes by I don't wish I played piano better, but it's required if you're going to be in the business now in order to put information into the computer. And it's a great thing because it not only allows me to hear it as I'm sculpting it and changing it, and I can change a tempo. I can change a note. I can change it from the melody being in this instrument to another instrument.

(26:39):

And the digital samples have become very sophisticated, and we can really do wonderful things with it. But it also allows me then to play it for the filmmaker or the director or whoever, and then they can make a comment about it. So it is an important process, part of the process to be able to not only know this language enough to be able to compose it, but you have to be able to create very sophisticated, real-sounding demos for the filmmaker to be able to respond to it.

(27:10):

And that has been very, very useful for them as well as us that we've been able to bring them into the creative process. But I knew a lot of composers that were starting when I started, composers that were in that first class that I took that wanted to pursue it, and they just could not make that leap over that chasm-

Kendell Kelton (27:32):

Interesting.

Mark Watters (27:32):

... into the next language and they're not working now. They're not doing it. And it is constantly changing. It is, I think, the most difficult part of it. And what I tell my students, and basically anything I tell my students, I'm telling myself.

(27:50):

Find a process, find the tools that work for you, and don't feel like you have to reinvent yourself every six months, because some new bit of software just came out. Find what works for you and add to it. I mean you don't want to become a hermit and not change, but the basic composing tools that we use, you should find one that works for you and barring some, the program doesn't exist anymore, which happens occasionally, or something just so new and wonderful comes out that it changes everything.

(28:26):

Elastic is the word I use a lot with my students. You have to remain elastic so that if something comes along, you are able to change. Now if you're a John Williams, which there's only one, but if you are a John Williams caliber talent, then you can do whatever you want to do. John still writes with a pencil and paper and at his piano and his drafting table and-

Kendell Kelton (28:49):

Oh, that's [inaudible 00:28:50]

Mark Watters (28:49):

... he writes exactly the same way he did in the late '50s when he first started. Well, he can do that because he's John Williams.

Kendell Kelton (28:55):

Right.

Mark Watters (28:56):

But the rest of us, we have to, if other composers are presenting demos that they produce in their studio, well, then you better be able to do it too, or you're not going to work.

Kendell Kelton (29:06):

Right. Well, and it was really interesting. I was reading this article just expressing how music producers, how they're evolving with AI, in particular, and it's a great productivity tool. They can use it to correct vocal pitches.

(29:22):

The Beatles actually a year or two ago, used AI to isolate John Lennon's voice from a 1978 demo, and they wouldn't be able to do that without those tools. But at the same time, there's this delicate balance you're always kind of dancing on on that's great, but how do you remain true and authentic to the human creation piece and pulling that human emotion? Because AI can't do that yet, and I don't think it can for a while. But how do you strike that balance of just continuing to remind your students or remind yourself of how do you remain human in this very visceral experience of creating music?

Mark Watters (30:07):

Well, the first answer I'm going to say is that I think we haven't seen enough yet to make a definitive answer to that. I think the world is waiting. I think literally in the next year or two or three in terms of what I do, film music, media composition. I think things are going to really change because there's some people working on some software that is going to bust this wide open and that part of it-

Kendell Kelton (30:37):

Really? What software?

Mark Watters (30:38):

Well, software that you could literally program in different styles of composing and then just tell it, "I want an action cue. I want it this fast. I want it on a level 6.7 as far as how dangerous it sounds." Boom. There it is.

(30:55):

And while that may be great for a filmmaker or a low budget producer or something that, wow, I can get a score by just typing in some numbers. It takes away the creative process. It's like buying a dress off the rack or having a dress designed just for you that only you have it.

(31:19):

So every time humanity has made giant leaps, the next technological leap, there's always been some negative that comes along with it.

Kendell Kelton (31:31):

Right.

Mark Watters (31:31):

What I worry about with this type of technology is it's not going to replace the John Williams or the Hans Zimmers. It won't. Because those films and that level of production is always going to want that collaborative exchange between composer. Where I fear that it's going to take away from is the low budget stuff that frankly, the audience isn't really caring about.

(31:58):

That's the work that young composers need and would get. And if you take that level away, the effect is going to be there. There is definitely going to be a ripple from that, but that's what I worry about because it's just human nature. If I can get something for a lot less, a lot quicker, they're going to get it. And you can't put that genie back in the bottle.

Kendell Kelton (32:24):

Well, and so I guess to that note, as you're having, you're seeing, I'm assuming it's April now, you have another graduating class coming up and what are the things that you're telling them to keep in mind as they... maybe they're heading out to LA, maybe they're not but-

Mark Watters (32:45):

I've got five that are graduating and all five of them want to go to LA. I tell them to be prepared. Don't expect to be getting lucrative A-list work right away. And I said, "Mainly because you're probably not ready for it yet. I mean there's only so much I can teach you in two years." You're going to go through this apprentice period, and hopefully they will find an opportunity to be an assistant or an apprentice to somebody.

(33:15):

And if they don't, then at least find composers that will allow them to come to sessions, that will allow them to come over to their studio and watch them work and talk with the assistants that they do have. I talk about you have to be pleasant to work with. You have to have a personality that makes people feel comfortable with you. I'll present scenarios like, okay, what would happen if this happened to you? How would you deal with that?

(33:43):

Another important part of my curriculum here is we don't have a film school here at the Eastman School of Music, but there's a school nearby. The Rochester Institute of Technology has a great film school and a great animation school and video game developing school, world-renowned. And we have a great relationship with them. And my students score their student films.

(34:05):

And so now they're getting the experience of working with a director that may not know how to explain what it is they want, or they don't like something that they wrote, and they can't tell you what to do better, but they just want you to do something different. But dealing with adversity is what I first talk to them about, and being the type of person that people want to trust you with that, the way Don Mischer trusted me with so much.

Kendell Kelton (34:37):

Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate your time today.

Mark Watters (34:42):

It has been a lot of fun sharing this with you. Thank you very much for asking.

Kendell Kelton (34:48):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guests and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out Rev.com/podcasts. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to rate and subscribe in order to stay up to date with the latest episodes. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft.