Nadia Hamdan

Kendell Kelton (00:01):

Hi, I'm Kendall Kelton and I'm your host today on The Rough Draft. Featuring honest conversations with folks from across the creative industry, the Rough Draft explores the creative process, tools and resources used by some of the best in the business. From journalists to content creators and business leaders, we shed light on what it looks like to break into the industry, make mistakes, collaborate with others, and the essential tools that help us all along the way.

(00:24):

This week, I'm super excited to be talking with Nadia Hamdan, a producer for the Emmy & Murrow Award-winning investigative reporting podcast and public radio show, Reveal. Nadia has worked on a range of investigative stories about the post-war health care crisis, the impacts of US gun laws, and that modern-day debate around reparations. On today's episode, Nadia breaks down her creative process and the tools she uses to bring her investigative stories to air and walks us through how she produced her most recent three-part series on Black reparations called 40 Acres and a Lie.

(00:57):

Hi.

Nadia Hamdan (01:07):

Hi.

Kendell Kelton (01:08):

Thank you for joining today. I'm really excited about this because you and what you're doing now, I just find so completely fascinating, especially given where the world is. So before we dive into things, I want to start with the basics, Reveal. So Reveal is known for its deep dive investigative reporting, and for those who might not be as familiar with it, how would you describe the show, what it's about and the type of stories you focus on?

Nadia Hamdan (01:47):

I mean, it really runs the gamut. Reveal I think is pretty unique in the sense that it's going to give you a deep dive into just a variety of topics, and it does so every week, and the way that we're able to do this is that we are able to cover things like abortion, gun laws, voter fraud, any big-name issue, Reveal is looking at it. And the way we're able to do this is we have our in-House team of reporters and producers who put out incredible stuff. But what I love about Reveal and what I think is really unique about this shop is that we partner with investigative journalists everywhere from different outlets across the world. So if people have stories that they want to tell through this medium, and maybe they're a print reporter for the AP or they work at The Texas Tribune, you can reach out to Reveal and we have really strong partnerships with people already. Or if your pitch is just fabulous, we will work with you and we will take that story and turn it into an incredible hour of audios.

Kendell Kelton (02:55):

To that end, producing a weekly investigative show, I have to imagine as a marathon and not a sprint. What is it like to keep up with that pace though week after week?

Nadia Hamdan (03:11):

The way that it works is we are investigative, so we do have time, right? This is part of the reason I moved to Reveal from a local daily because I wanted to sit with a story longer. And when you work at a local daily, prior to Reveal, I worked at KUT in Austin. It was just a quick daily turnaround or turning a feature around in a week, and I love that and there's something really special about that and it's a great skill to have. But I wanted to just sit in a story longer. And the nice thing about Reveal is they do give you a decent amount of time to really tell a story. We do have quick turnarounds from time to time, but usually we sit on a story for a few months at a time. One of the longest stories I worked on took two years.

(04:00):

So there is this understanding that a good story, at least certain hour-long shows, are going to take time and they carve out that time. But otherwise, yeah, sometimes you're turning around a segment 8 to 10 minutes within a month or two. And I think for anyone who has done any sort of production work, anytime you get close to deadlines, it doesn't matter if you're a daily, a monthly, a yearly, it just feels like you have no head and you're trying to make things work. But it's still great, because I love that I just get to sit in a story for a while and think about it, and I feel like that's where a lot of nuance comes in.

Kendell Kelton (04:44):

Yeah. We're going to talk a lot about sitting in that and your creative process and a storytelling piece, but fun fact that you don't know about me, but I know about you. We were both editors and chiefs of our high school newspaper. So, yeah.

(05:03):

From early on, and I know your path wasn't necessarily linear. So how did that early experience shape your interest in journalism, and what ultimately led you to doing this longer form content that you have already articulated that you love so much?

Nadia Hamdan (05:25):

Well, nerd meets nerd, super happy to know you're also editor. I remember we got Letterman jackets for being an editor.

Kendell Kelton (05:33):

Oh, yeah. We did too.

Nadia Hamdan (05:34):

I was like, I don't think that should be allowed. No, I loved it. I loved being editor of my high school newspaper. I wasn't a huge joiner, to be honest. I did a few things in high school, but I wasn't one of those people that really was doing a ton of extracurricular stuff, but I was so drawn to being editor, and there was an open position to do it, and I've always loved writing. Writing was something I really enjoyed doing. Telling stories was something I really enjoyed doing, so I was like, why not try this? And I remember that being such a formative time to be like, oh, you can do something really special by just telling a story.

(06:15):

I think the final story I did when I was editor was there was one person who was trans in our school, and I knew them and I knew that they would change every day before school and become the person that they are, but their parents wouldn't accept. And so I did a two-page spread about their story as one of my final stories that I did. And I just remember what it meant to that person, and I just remember falling in love with that experience and how much it taught me.

(06:48):

And so I knew I wanted to do that, but I have an immigrant father, and he didn't quite see what was so great about it at the time. He knew how hard it was to be a journalist. He knew how little they pay. And so he was just like, "I don't think this is the path for you." Early in those early days, I was a little lost and it shook my confidence in it. And so I took a very different route. I definitely did a very different career for a while. I went the corporate route, marketing and advertising, and I don't regret it. I learned a ton. I got to travel and see the world, and I got to do interesting things, but it was just never it. I knew it wasn't it, and I was still so deep in the journalism world. I was listening to NPR all the time. I was reading articles all the time. I was loving living in the words that these people were creating. And I was like, I want to give it a shot. And so I decided to give it a shot.

Kendell Kelton (07:50):

Reveal, let's talk about that a bit more. When you're brought onto a story or maybe you pitch a story idea, how does that process begin, especially on the investigative lens, because as you said, it takes time, it can take months, it can take years, so how do y'all kick things off?

Nadia Hamdan (08:12):

To be honest, it's like we're always trying to figure out what's the most efficient way to do this, it's like an ongoing conversation in our newsroom. But a lot of it is, if you have a story, you pitch it and you write up your pitch as best you can. You propose it in front of a team. And the editors go off and come back and say yay or nay. And then other times I'm assigned stories. A lot of the time I am, because as I said, as a producer, a big part of my job is taking those stories that come from outside outlets and turning it into a really strong piece of radio.

Kendell Kelton (08:53):

And so you hinted at this, sometimes you're reporting, sometimes you're producing, sometimes you're doing both. Do you have a preference personally, or has that shifted as you've moved along in your career?

Nadia Hamdan (09:03):

I-

Kendell Kelton (09:03):

... personally or has that shifted as you've moved along in your career?

Nadia Hamdan (09:03):

I would like to report more. I feel like part of the... As much as I, and don't get me wrong, I really love taking a really great story from a print reporter and turning it into something really special. There is a really, I do enjoy that process. But the struggle for me is that sometimes I am an audio producer and reporter, so I know how to do this job for this medium, and sometimes I'm expending so much energy trying to teach someone who's a print reporter and that's not their job to be this version of themselves.

(09:43):

It can take a lot and sometimes you don't always succeed. And that part can become a little difficult when you're like, I would like to produce and report my own, because I know I can make it sound exactly as I'm envisioning it to sound and not have to coach someone to be like, no, the inflection in your voice. Just sound a little less stiff. You know what I mean? And you have to sit there and do this work. And I do love when you see someone who's like, oh, that was such an incredible experience. I learned so much. And you're like, we were able to make something great. But sometimes you're like, it'd be nice to just have my hands on this thing from beginning to end.

Kendell Kelton (10:24):

There's nuances. I think audio journal, especially given it can be very subjective to somebody. It's like, how do you really embed them in the experience? Do you add music? Do you need a sound effect at a certain point? And some of the pieces that I was listening to that you were a part of, it's the moment you can hear yourself walking on the ground. That can be a very powerful moment at a place. I imagine that once you're in it, it can be really tricky, but also very beautiful process.

Nadia Hamdan (11:01):

Absolutely. You're totally touching on it. I think that's the part that you have certain instincts as an audio producer that you're not going to have as a print reporter. They're going to be so much better at stuff that I'm not as good at and vice versa. So when they come to us with a story sometimes, they've already done a decent amount of reporting. But then I ask, "What tape do you have?" Because we're a sonic medium, I need audio. And they're just like, "Oh, I don't know. I did all these interviews, but they were on my phone and they were just sitting here on the table and they're not that great." And I was like, "Okay, there's no ambi, right?" So there's no sound of the person walking. Or sound of whatever space you're in. All of those things matter so much in how you then construct a story that people feel like they're in. They can use their imagination and be there.

Kendell Kelton (11:53):

We're going to talk a little bit more about creative process a little bit later. But in those first few weeks, especially if you're wearing your producer hat on, how do you dive into that kind of mindset? As you're in the field reporting? Or how do you stay aware of all of those opportunities at the same time? Because again, print journalists may not, to your point, be thinking about what else can I capture here to articulate the point I'm trying to drive home?

Nadia Hamdan (12:24):

Yeah, totally. You're constantly trying to perfect that skill. As an audio producer, I think. You're just getting better at noticing things. And I think you're just, it's like you just have to turn your awareness up as high as possible when you're in those moments. When you're in an interview. Or when you're in the field. What sounds can I just get? And I don't know if I'm going to use it all. I don't know if it's going to be worthwhile. But what you're trying to do effectively is how do I bring the listener here in this moment with me? Or how do I get to the real meat of what this person I'm interviewing is saying? How do I describe the person I'm looking at so that the person who's listening can get a sense? Does she have a bold red lip?

(13:14):

Does he have some, is he bald? Does he wear glasses? Is he clean cut or is he a little schleppy? You know what I mean? You're trying to give someone an idea of a person because they're just listening. But you can hear their voice, so you're still getting this intimate sense of a person and maybe a space. But as a producer, the more intimacy you can bring into it, the better, I feel. And so that just means getting better and better at just really paying attention to really little things and capturing it all. And then having way too much tape to work with and cutting it down until you find something that worked.

Kendell Kelton (13:51):

Generally speaking, I wanted to ask, this industry's tough. It's tough. What challenges are you facing right now? I think a lot of people have this glamorous view of especially podcasts, of what it might be like to be in it. And sometimes they have a very glamorous view of the life of an investigative reporter.

Nadia Hamdan (14:19):

It is funny because tell someone, they're like, "What do you do?" And I'll be like, "I'm a podcast producer." And like, "Oh my God. Cool." So there is this sense of, it's one of those industries that people are like, "That's kind of dope." But I also think the market is so saturated.

Kendell Kelton (14:38):

It's tough.

Nadia Hamdan (14:39):

There's so many podcasts out there. And it is overwhelming sometimes. And you're really competing for people's attention, which I think is part of a frustration we have. Because what Reveal does, there is no doubt for anyone who really follows it. I admire the work that we do so much, and I know the value of it. But let's be honest. Most people don't want to hear a whole hour on why the world is on fire every week. They already know it's on fire. So I do think we tend to be a little doom and gloom, and I think that's part of, I can see how that makes it a struggle in this attention economy where people are like, "But you can listen to a whole podcast about people gossiping about stuff."

(15:24):

I'm like, "Yeah. I'd totally rather listen to that sometimes." Everything's changing because of the internet. Everything's changing because of the way that we just consume things. And that's really affected our industry. I've survived three rounds of layoffs. We had to do a merger with Mother Jones because we were really struggling as an organization, and merging was a way to save us. So it's behind the scenes, these are all happening as we're trying to put out these stories and still keep them to the highest caliber. But you're also just sometimes in a fetal position in the corner being like, "Will I have a job tomorrow?"

Kendell Kelton (15:57):

Well, Nadia, before we move on, I actually think that's a beautiful transition because I want to read something that you wrote ahead of this episode that you shared with our team.

(16:07):

When talking about audio journalism, in particular, I just thought it was a beautiful articulation of what you're doing. You said you're not just reporting, you're trying to immerse someone in the story. It's by far the most intimate form of journalism that exists, in my view. So while print and video can tell beautiful stories, I look at audio as the porridge that's just right. It's one thing to read someone's words, but to hear them say it with their own voice, with its own accent, cadence, and emotion, you connect so much more. I thought that was very powerful.

Nadia Hamdan (16:37):

Thank you. Thank you. I truly believe that. I really believe that. I'm so grateful that I found this medium and I found this work. I really do enjoy it every day, even on the worst days.

Kendell Kelton (16:51):

So Nadia, investigative audio can generate a mountain of material. How do you go about organizing it from ideas to research just to make sure things don't get lost? A one-week project in my world, I panic over if I have things. So I can only imagine what it might be like for you.

Nadia Hamdan (17:18):

I think the last project I worked on, which was the largest project I worked on, we use a software called Descript, which is where we upload a lot of our audio, and then it provides a transcript among many other wonderful things. It's a blessing and a curse. Our job is made so much better with that software. But my folder for that project got so big that I literally couldn't open it anymore towards the end. I had to do some maneuvering to make it work for the final few weeks of the project because it had just gotten huge. So yes, to your point, these projects can get crazy big. Hours and hours of audio. Days of audio really.

Kendell Kelton (18:01):

Reveal actually started in 2013, right?

Nadia Hamdan (18:03):

... audio really.

Kendell Kelton (18:03):

Reveal actually started in 2013, right? It's been around for a while. But imagine doing that without tools like [inaudible 00:18:10].

Nadia Hamdan (18:10):

Actually cutting physical tape.

Kendell Kelton (18:12):

Yeah.

Nadia Hamdan (18:12):

I respect that so much, but that's maybe part of why we're able to do this now. You know what I mean? Because the more advanced the software becomes, the more ambitious we can be.

Kendell Kelton (18:26):

I love that.

Nadia Hamdan (18:27):

So it doesn't mean that there wasn't incredible ambitious stories back then, but you were kind of limited with what you were able to do because there's only so much you can cut out of that tape. I used to not be very organized, I'll be honest. I was a bit of a chaos child, but with something that goes long and you're not quite sure what it's going to be at the very beginning, and you want to make sure that you're still able to go back into an old interview at a certain section and know where that interesting thing was.

(18:55):

I've learned to really organize my descript with different interviews, and then I listen to the interview almost immediately after I've done it, either the same day or the day after, because I know what moments spoke to me in the interview and I want to remember that. So what I'll do is I'll highlight the stuff, but I'll also put a note of like, "This was a great cut. One of the best," or, "This was an interesting note she made," or, "Fact-check this," just to keep my thoughts in order so that when I do go back into that thing, even if it's been a month or two since I've looked at it, I can go through the interview with all these notes on the side and be reminded very quickly of the things that I need to know so that I can move a little bit faster and make many last-minute changes.

(19:43):

So that's one way in which I try to really keep it organized is just really, really make sure that your tape is really, really well organized and that you've really laid out the best pieces of it.

Kendell Kelton (19:53):

Writing scripts can be a really intimate process. I know some people are like, "I just like going on walks. I just like having my good old corner in a coffee shop and my pen and paper, or I'll just sit there on my laptop and I can't have tech around me."

Nadia Hamdan (20:08):

Yeah.

Kendell Kelton (20:08):

I'd love to know more about your... Because I imagine it may be similar, maybe not. But it's like this crazy balance between modern advancements and good old-fashioned pen and paper.

Nadia Hamdan (20:19):

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the software is incredible for keeping things organized when it comes to writing; it is always going to be the writing process. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter how advanced this technology comes. When you're looking at a blank page, it is the scariest thing on earth, and you have to figure out, "How do I make it work for me?" Everyone, like you said, has very different ways of doing that.

(20:46):

I do love taking walks. I think taking walks when you have writer's block is one of the best things you can do. It really just gets everything moving again. Writing isn't sitting at your computer typing. Writing is happening all the time. It can happen in so many scenarios. It can happen right when you're falling asleep. It can happen right when you wake up. It can happen while you are having a dinner with a random stranger. An idea will come, and that's part of the thing you want to put in your story.

(21:12):

So I'm not rigid in the way that I write. There's the reporting side of my brain that's like, "Let me make sure that I'm respecting the people that talked to me and told me what they feel." Then there's the creative side of my brain that's like, "Okay, but what's the most interesting way I can do this?" The first draft sucks always, always. It's the ugly baby, and it's just like I've learned over many, many years because my old self used to be like, I would just sit with that blank page first draft for way too long.

Kendell Kelton (21:46):

Or get emotionally attached to it. If an editor comes in and is like, "Yes," or somebody else comes in or a collaborative partner is like, "Let's do it this way," and it's like [inaudible 00:21:55]-

Nadia Hamdan (21:54):

Yes, yes, exactly. I think if I have any advice I would give people starting out, it's just get a first draft on paper. Just get a first draft on paper. It does not have to be good. In fact, it's fine if it's not good because I think the good comes from just getting that on paper so you get that first really tough part out of the way, and then you go through and you finesse. You need to almost vomit this out and then go back and fix it up. That's how it becomes what it's supposed to be. If you waste too much time on trying to make that first draft, the perfect draft, you're going to miss out on actually making something really fantastic.

Kendell Kelton (22:35):

All right. Nadia, your series, which took two years to bring to life. 40 Acres and a Lie took a deep look at some of the unfulfilled promises made to Black Americans and our history. I listened to the three episodes, and you could tell it was very tough. No matter where you sat on the issue, it was a very difficult subject for people to talk about. So what were the key questions driving your investigation and how did you get started on that particular show?

Nadia Hamdan (23:15):

So, this was a show that was brought to us by a partner. So it was one of those moments where our editors came forward and said, "The Center for Public Integrity, which speaking of the state of the industry no longer exists," actually folded while we were doing this project. So these are incredible reporters. Anyone listening, reach out to them. They had come to us saying, "One of our reporters has been unpacking this history and is learning that there are these physical land titles that exist in the deep dark corners of the National Archives. No one's really seen them, and no one really understands them, but it just shows that this history that we all thought we understood is actually so much more than we thought."

(24:04):

The minute I read it, I was like, "I want to be the producer." I don't know. There was just instinctual, my hand went up immediately, and I was like, "This is fascinating." I think as a reporter during George Floyd, there was a lot of discussions in newsrooms about covering more Black stories and understanding the Black experience in a deeper way. I felt like this was an opportunity to do that because my understanding of 40 Acres and a Mule was minimal, to say the least. So this-

Kendell Kelton (24:33):

Same. Same before I listened to this.

Nadia Hamdan (24:35):

Yeah, and that's a shame, right? That's a shame. In the Black community, it's obviously a little more prominent, but we all should know this. This is all our history. But yeah, I was brought on as the producer and it took so long because what they were doing was really labor intensive. They were doing work that historians do. They were trying to unpack and go through millions of documents. So it was kind of just a really long process for them to get to a point where they finally were like, "Okay, this is the final number I think we can get to before we have to just start making this thing."

(25:09):

Then we had to start making the thing, and it's a story about documents. So then the next step was everyone had to start looking into genealogies and tracing the names of the formerly enslaved to actual living descendants, those that may have received 40 acres through the program. It was a lot of work, and we really struggled to find people, which is another really insidious part of slavery is that these records are gone, and it's really hard to make those connections. But we were able to find people, and then we had to construct a story out of it, and that was a really hard thing to do. It was really hard.

Kendell Kelton (25:53):

You went into the field to do reporting. You were multiple places, but I'll call out the Carolinas and Georgia specifically, and doing that brings about its own set of challenges, especially if you're trying to find people, meeting them where they are. So what was that like and how did that experience for you shape where you took the story?

Nadia Hamdan (26:16):

This is the part that I feel really grateful for in my job and also grateful to the people at CPI who really trusted us in this process and welcomed me along every step of the way and wanted me to co-report it with them. Getting to report in the field is the thing that lifts me up in this job. The thing that is so special about getting to be a journalist and a producer is I get to meet people that I otherwise probably never would've met. Then I get to not only meet them but talk to them about really intimate stuff, really personal stuff, really fraught stuff. It's a story about land, and it's a story about descendants, and I'm getting to walk the land with that descendant. It's a beautiful experience.

(27:03):

... that descendant.

(27:03):

It's a beautiful experience, and it's one that I just really treasure, and it does change things for you. Part of what I wanted to try to do with those three episodes, when we're talking about collecting tape, I was trying to collect as much sound of the cicadas, because when you're out there, it's so hot, and you feel like the sound of ... It's like those cicada sounds are just all around you, or the water is nearby, or whatever. The nature around you is so present, and you're kind of feeling that as you're talking to this person about this land that was once theirs, or taken from them.

(27:36):

So then I was like, well, I want people to try and be here with me. And because we had to pack so much in, I didn't get as much of that in the show as I would've liked, of just letting people sit and feel that, because to me it was so profound. That's one example of just, you get immersed, and you realize the gravity of what it is you're talking about.

(27:59):

And having people open up to you, and then get so emotional. And you realize-

Kendell Kelton (28:07):

There were a few times in the show where people are like, "I can't, I got to stop."

Nadia Hamdan (28:12):

Yeah, totally.

Kendell Kelton (28:13):

And that alone just reflects the power of what you were trying to do.

Nadia Hamdan (28:17):

Yeah. I mean, there's one line that I wrote, that I was really proud of, because I was trying to figure out how to end the first episode, because there had been so much emotion ... And this goes back to what it means to be a producer, I think, that you're really paying attention, and you're kind of trying to notice as much as you can, to try and convey something, right?

(28:36):

So this is an example of that. Like you said, multiple times through our reporting, people got so emotional, whether it be angry and frustrated, or just completely sad, and they asked us to turn the mic off, which doesn't happen a ton, to be honest, in my business. I don't remember a ton of times where someone was so overwhelmed by what we were discussing that they asked me to turn the mic off. And for that to happen three separate times in our reporting, I felt like was notable.

(29:07):

So I was like, well, one, I know I want to showcase that they asked us to turn the mic off, because I do think that, as a reporter, is pertinent to this discussion. Because the reason they're asking us to turn it off is because struggling to talk about this.

(29:21):

And then I was thinking to myself, so many people are like, "Oh, you're talking about slavery, it's done and gone, this was so long ago, let it go." And so when I was thinking about how to end the show ... And we had just come out of another person asking to turn the mic off, because he was getting emotional and starting to cry. I was just like, if it's still this hard to talk about, it means there's still so much more to say. I'm not trying to be biased, I think that is objectively what I am witnessing, is that people are struggling to talk about this, this far after this thing, then clearly it's still important, and there's still so much more we need to be talking. Those are the kinds of things I feel like you're trying to do as a producer, is really translate that as best you can, because you're the one walking that path with that descendant. You're the one in Georgia, sweating profusely, walking through fields in 110 degree weather. You are trying to get a sense for the listener to then walk away with something.

Kendell Kelton (30:23):

I guess reflecting on this series, you had mentioned it's one you're proud of, and you were proud of honing in on certain moments, what lessons do you think you have walked away with, after those two years, that will shape your future work, or future pieces, that you may come across?

Nadia Hamdan (30:45):

It just ended this summer, so I feel like I'm slowly piecing that together of ... Because I clearly learned ... I mean, it was such a formative. I think anyone who ever works on something this big in their career for the first time, is going to walk away with so many lessons for the next one.

Kendell Kelton (31:03):

And you might still be in it. You might still be in it.

Nadia Hamdan (31:05):

Yeah. A part of me feels like I'm not fully ... I haven't fully extricated myself from it yet. And I think I will ... I tend to do that, I have a little bit of a longer tail end. And then I'll go back and listen a few months later, and I'll have an epiphany of sorts, of what I could have done better. And I have some of that now.

(31:27):

I mean, I will say, I think sometimes I'm really tough on myself. I think I can get really ... When I work, and this is just personally, I want it to be the best thing that ever was, and I put a lot of pressure on myself to do so.

(31:41):

And I do think it's what makes me good, but I also think sometimes I lose sight. What story are you trying to tell, and are you telling it well? And not losing sight of the people that you've interviewed, and what they have said. And don't get too lost in the, I have to make this incredible, and forget that really what you're trying to do is translate something important to a listener.

(32:05):

And if you can do that ... That can be done in a myriad of ways, there isn't one right way. And I think that, in my mind, sometimes I trick myself to believe there's one right way, and if I don't do it that one right way, it was all for nothing. And, of course, that's not true. That's so not true.

(32:24):

What I have gained from this experience, getting to talk to all the different people that I got to talk to, getting to share their stories with an audience ... Let's be honest, NPR is a very white place, with a very white audience, and I got to do three full episodes of all different voices from Black people from all across the spectrum. And I think that in itself is wonderful.

(32:50):

Because that's part of what we're trying to do, is to just get people to step in someone else's shoes for a minute, and try to empathize with their experience. Whether or not you agree, that's a different story, but at least take a moment to live in someone else's experience for a minute. And I do feel I achieved that. And I feel like sometimes I can get too lost in what I'm producing, versus just the story itself.

Kendell Kelton (33:13):

And what y'all are doing are bringing these stories to life for folks. Again, as I had mentioned earlier, I am a bit sad with myself that I didn't quite understand the gravity of 40 Acres and a Mule. It's tough, and I have a lot of privilege, it's tough to have to sit with.

Nadia Hamdan (33:32):

It is, it's uncomfortable. I felt that plenty throughout this. But the fact that you just said it gave you perspective of any kind, that's, to me, valuable. If in another conversation someone brings up 40 Acres and a Mule, and you can speak to it in some way that is true to the reality of what it was, that's a win. That's what journalism can, and should, do, is just have you walk away with a little bit more knowledge, that makes you a little bit more empathetic to the world around you.

Kendell Kelton (34:09):

I think that's actually a beautiful way to kind of wrap this up. Before we go, can you please let our audience know where they can find your work, learn more about you?

Nadia Hamdan (34:19):

Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been lovely. I guess you can go to Revealnews.org if you want to go online, but you can also just go to any place that you get your podcast. We're also featured on hundreds of NPR stations across the country, so if you're an avid NPR listener, you can go to your local station and see when they air Reveal, if they air Reveal, but a lot do, and so you could listen live. Or, you can go to my website, which is nadiahamdan.me.

Kendell Kelton (34:54):

We'll link those in our show notes.

(34:58):

Well, that's it for today's episode of The Rough Draft. To learn more about our guest, and to find links and resources related to the conversation, check out Rev.com/podcast.

(35:07):

If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to rate and subscribe in order to stay up to date with the latest episodes. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of The Rough Draft.

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