Nick Robinson (00:01):
In this week, we remember those who died in World War II. I've come to Delaware in the United States for a special edition of Political Thinking at the start of a new series of conversations with rather than newsy interrogations of those who shape our political thinking about what has shaped theirs.
(00:18)
My guest this week is the last living president of this country to have been born during the Second World War, a man who says it shaped his beliefs and his values. A man who served for 50 years as a frontline politician, as senator for this state, as Vice President to Barack Obama, and then President of the United States. On this special anniversary, we invited President Joe Biden to reflect on the history and what it teaches us now.
Joe Biden (01:02):
Good to see you.
Nick Robinson (01:04):
Real pleasure to meet you.
Joe Biden (01:06):
Honored I'm here.
Nick Robinson (01:06):
I'm told you know this place.
Joe Biden (01:07):
I know this place, yep. It's the Hotel Du Pont, and this was the center of all activity in this town for a long, long time.
Nick Robinson (01:15):
And am I right, you launched your senatorial campaign in this building?
Joe Biden (01:18):
I did, in the main hall downstairs.
Nick Robinson (01:20):
Please come and take a-
Joe Biden (01:21):
It feels almost sacrilegious, a young Democrat coming in Republican territory unannounced.
Nick Robinson (01:29):
That was what? Just 50 years ago?
Joe Biden (01:31):
That's all.
Nick Robinson (01:33):
Not a lot.
Joe Biden (01:33):
It was yesterday.
Nick Robinson (01:35):
Mr. President, thank you so much for talking to us.
Joe Biden (01:37):
Thanks for being here.
Nick Robinson (01:39):
In this week of celebrations of VE Day, I've been looking back at a speech you made a year ago, Normandy for the 80th anniversary of D-Day. And you said, "They knew beyond any doubt there are things worth fighting and dying for." It's a message of sacrifice. Do you fear that that message is being forgotten in America right now?
Joe Biden (02:06):
I do fear a little bit. I don't think it's been forgotten by the people. I think it's being forgotten by the leadership a little bit. Excuse my cough. The fact is that my father and mother's generation knew what was at stake. They knew that democracy was literally hanging in the balance.
(02:26)
Adolf Hitler had he won, had there been no United Europe and united with the United States… The United States has never been able to avoid a war in Europe. And so one of the smartest things we did after World War II was we formed NATO because alliances provide security. And imagine had we not done that.
(02:50)
And the other thing, I had been to a landing on D-Day, a reenactment of that event, not the 80th earlier, and coming in on one of those boats, those landing craft and the thousands of ships were out there and the tens of thousands of men and women, mostly men who stormed the beaches and then how they scaled those cliffs. There's 6,000 grave sites there, 6,000.
Nick Robinson (03:28):
That's what's in your mind on-
Joe Biden (03:30):
Yeah.
Nick Robinson (03:30):
… this week?
Joe Biden (03:31):
And anyway, I just… The world has gotten smaller. And so imagine if we didn't have NATO now, what would be happening in the Mediterranean? What would be happening with regard to activity by Russia and China in the region? But NATO is the strongest alliance in the history of the world.
Nick Robinson (04:01):
You say imagine. Can you imagine it now? Because there are some people who fear that this Atlantic Alliance born in the Second World War is now dying before our very eyes. Is that your concern?
Joe Biden (04:13):
It's a grave concern. I think it would change the modern history of the world if that occurs. Look, we are not the essential nation, but we're the only nation in position to have the capacity to bring people together to lead the world.
(04:36)
And otherwise you're going to have China and the former Soviet Union, Russia stepping up. And when I say inflection point, there's so much change taking place so rapidly that there needs to be an ability to respond rapidly.
(04:55)
And I just think to myself, what would've happened in the Middle East as bad as things are now were there no NATO? Do you think Russia and China would've stayed out militarily? Anyway…
Nick Robinson (05:10):
The center of NATO is this promise, isn't it? You called it in a speech I saw in Warsaw a few years ago, a sacred obligation, which is-
Joe Biden (05:19):
Which is sacred-
Nick Robinson (05:20):
… you defend each other. Do you think Donald-
Joe Biden (05:23):
Attack on one is an attack on all.
Nick Robinson (05:26):
Do you believe that obligation is still respected by Donald Trump?
Joe Biden (05:33):
Well, he doesn't say it is. And I think the rest of the world, I know… One of the only advantages of being the old guy is that I've known every major world leader in the last 30 years, and I've known them personally.
(05:49)
And I know all the major world leaders today. And I can tell you the last meeting of the G7, meeting the NATO seven… anyway, or the G20, which is a larger group, as we left the meeting, almost every world leader would pull me aside and say, "We got to keep NATO." Meaning my democracy's at stake.
(06:18)
Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. Everyone, everyone's going to be challenged. And we've done it well for the last 80 years. And I'm worried that there's a loss of understanding of the consequence of that.
Nick Robinson (06:35):
You've talked about a great threat to democracy. Do you really believe that there is a greater threat now to democracy than at any time since the Second World War?
Joe Biden (06:46):
Yes, I do, because… I mean, look at the number of European leaders in European countries. They're wondering, "Well, what do I do now? I mean, what's the best route for me to take? Can I rely on the United States? Are they going to be there?"
(07:02)
Not alone in the United States. "Will this stay together?" And instead of democracy expanding around the world, they're receding. And democracy is… every generation has to fight for it.
Nick Robinson (07:20):
And yet you hear what's being said by this administration. The vice president JD Vance complains about European freeloading, he calls it. The defence secretary… Let me just repeat that.
(07:34)
You know what they're saying in this administration, the US defence secretary talks about European freeloading. The vice president talks about your country, the United States bailing out Europe. There's an anger there. Have they not got a point?
Joe Biden (07:48):
No, they don't have a point. Look, you have… Of all the NATO nations, almost all of them are 2% right now. But what they've done is when we were attacked, what happened on 9/11? They all responded, support us.
(08:09)
Look, imagine there being no NATO. Do you think Putin would've stopped at Ukraine? Do we think Putin would've stopped as… I don't understand how they fail to understand that there's strength in alliances. There's benefits, the cost, there… It saves us money overall.
Nick Robinson (08:39):
Let's turn to Ukraine, can we? Because you compared the war in Ukraine with the Second World War. President Trump is now saying, "Look, if you want peace, Ukraine is going to have to give up some territory." Some people think that is common sense to say that. Do you think it's not common sense? It's perhaps modern-day appeasement?
Joe Biden (09:00):
It is modern-day appeasement. Look, listen to what Putin said when he talked about going from Kiev into Ukraine and why. He believed it's part of mother Russia. He believes historical rights to Ukraine. He talks about Eastern Europe.
(09:25)
What this man wants to do is reestablish the Warsaw Pact. He can't stand the fact that the Russian dictatorship that he runs, that the Soviet Union has collapsed. And anybody thinks he's going to stop, is just foolish.
(09:47)
And look, we have a trillion dollar economies with… economic exchange with Europe. I just don't understand how people think that if we allow a dictator, a thug to decide he's going to take significant portions of the land that aren't his and that's going to satisfy him. I don't quite understand.
Nick Robinson (10:14):
So you call it appeasement. What might happen if the Trump administration says, "Look, that's the deal. You've got to give this territory up at least temporarily"? What is your fear of the consequence of that?
Joe Biden (10:25):
My fear of the consequence is that some of the NATO countries are going to decide that maybe… especially those along the border with Russia may just say, "We got to make an accommodation. We got to make an accommodation. We got to give Russia more space. We have to yield to the pressures whether they're economic, political, or military." And-
Nick Robinson (10:50):
So you see countries like Romania, for example, having a presidential election choosing people who are Putin's friends?
Joe Biden (10:59):
I don't even want to say it. Yeah, I worry about it.
Nick Robinson (11:04):
What did you make of those scenes in the Oval Office? President Trump and President Zelensky.
Joe Biden (11:13):
I found it sort of beneath America the way that took place and the way we talk about now that, "Well, since the Gulf of America, maybe we're going to have to take back Panama. Maybe we need to acquire Greenland. Maybe Canada should be…" What the hell's going on here? What president ever talks like that? That's not who we are. We're about freedom, democracy, opportunity, not about confiscation.
Nick Robinson (11:53):
Does that mean, do you think, that that talk destroys the alliances that-
Joe Biden (11:57):
Sure it does.
Nick Robinson (11:58):
… the United States have dependent?
Joe Biden (12:00):
Well, it destroys it. It weakens it considerably, weakens it considerably. I mean, Canada, the way we talk about Canada, it's like as if it could be a 51st state. Canada's been an ally…
(12:12)
Look, we have a significant advantage. One of the reasons why we thought it was important to be a thing called NATO. We had the Pacific Ocean and Atlantic Ocean on the east and our West.
(12:22)
Canada and Mexico in our north and our south. What does Britain have? What does it all… What are they surrounded by? They're surrounded by countries that have been a war off and on for the last 500 years. And NATO brought stability.
Nick Robinson (12:39):
But you will know what they sometimes say of you, sir. They sometimes say, "Look, President Biden warned us about this invasion of Ukraine. He did. He led the west in standing up to Putin. He did that."
(12:52)
But they sometimes say that you didn't have the courage to go all the way to let Ukraine win. You let them stop the invasion, but you didn't give them the weapons they needed, the long-range weapons to really win.
Joe Biden (13:06):
Well, a few people do say that, but the idea that they could win without engaging NATO in war and NATO in having engaged the Soviet Union, former Soviet Union, Russia, is not likely. We gave them everything they needed to provide for their independence. And we were prepared to respond more aggressively if in fact Putin moved again but we needed to…
(13:43)
This is a tricky thing. We had Poland now. Poland is a NATO country. Poland used to be in a situation where it was part of the Warsaw Pact. There's just a lot of change taking place. And the idea that we're ready to go to World War III with two nuclear powers could be avoided. And we did avoid it, but we also made-
Nick Robinson (14:15):
That was the threat though. That was the worry in your mind?
Joe Biden (14:18):
Yes. Well, look-
Nick Robinson (14:20):
Go too hard against Russia.
Joe Biden (14:22):
Well-
Nick Robinson (14:22):
Nuclear weapons are used.
Joe Biden (14:23):
Go too hard against Russian territory, yes. Up to now, wasn't involved in Russian territory. And what did Putin do when things got really tough for him? Threatened the use of tactical nuclear weapons. This is not a game of roulette.
Nick Robinson (14:45):
It's a frightening time. Now, I can tell how angry you are, I think, with some of the things that your successor, with Donald Trump, has been saying and doing. You say, "It's not who we are. It's not America." The other day you said in a speech, "Nobody is king." Do you think he's behaving more like a monarch than a president?
Joe Biden (15:05):
Oh, I'd rather not comment. I'm not sure how he's behaving. He's not behaving like a Republican president.
Nick Robinson (15:15):
You're being diplomatic, sir. What do you say about his a hundred days now? He says, "Look at all these things I've achieved. I've closed the border. I've started to bring jobs back to the United States. I'm cutting government waste." He says he's delivering what people voted for.
Joe Biden (15:30):
Let me tell you, when I left office, we had created more jobs than any present history of the United States in one term. Our economy was roaring. We're moving in a direction where the stock market was way up. We're in a situation where we were expanding our influence around the world in a positive way, increasing trade.
(15:51)
We regained control of what we invented, the control of the future of computer chips, which control everything. We were in a situation where there was growth opportunity and we…
(16:09)
For example, they told me, "Remember, Trump had this plan. He was going to rebuild America, increase our infrastructure." We had infrastructure weak for four years. Nothing that was built. I was able to convince the Congress and the American people accept $1.3 trillion in economic growth.
Nick Robinson (16:28):
So he says his a hundred days is a triumph. What does President Biden say about Trump's first a hundred days?
Joe Biden (16:34):
I'll let history judge that. I don't see anything that was triumphant.
Nick Robinson (16:39):
And you see things to worry about. Do you, when you talk of a threat to democracy, worry about a threat to democracy here at home, here in the United States?
Joe Biden (16:50):
I'm less concerned about that than I was because I think the Republican Party is waking up to what Trump is about.
Nick Robinson (17:01):
Do you think they may fight back?
Joe Biden (17:04):
I think the beginning, yes.
Nick Robinson (17:06):
But you will know people see laws apparently being broken, courts ignored, Congress sidelined. They don't like what they see.
Joe Biden (17:17):
Well, I think they're seeing that too. I think that's why you're… I don't think they'll succeed in that effort.
Nick Robinson (17:23):
Let's return to where we began our conversation. You have this powerful phrase about an inflection point. You said once that we're living through a dramatic change in the world of the sort that you only see every, what, six or eight generations. Young people are very frightened at the moment. I think possibly more frightened than any time I can remember in my lifetime. Are they right to be?
Joe Biden (17:51):
Right to be concerned, that's why they have to be involved. They have to be involved. They have to get engaged. They have to be part of the political process. They have to vote. They have to make sure they make their views known. And I think it may be also a wake-up call to that generation.
(18:12)
Look, think about this. The idea of the United States is deciding to significantly reduce its work in terms of technical advancements, it's… Look, how can you remain the most powerful nation in the world and have a second-rate infrastructure? How can you maintain those powerful in the nation of the world with a second-rate education system? How can you be the most powerful nation in the world if you don't have the ability to provide opportunity for a vast majority of the American people?
(18:47)
Look, my dad used to have an expression. He said, "Look, Joey, everybody in America deserves a shot." Just a shot. Just a shot. That's why I changed the economic model. We talk about instead of trickle-down economics, as my dad would say, not a whole lot trickle-down in his kitchen table, but I tell you what, we grew the economy from the middle out and the bottom up. I focused on that. The wealthy's still doing very well. They got to start paying their taxes a little more, number one. But number two, they also… the middle class is growing.
Nick Robinson (19:20):
Hope is a word that you've often liked to use; hope instead of fear. And when you moved into the Oval Office, up on the wall there was Franklin Delano Roosevelt who talked about the triumph of hope over fear. He was, of course, America's wartime leader. Do you fear that the America that we've seen ever since that time is ending the Atlantic Alliance we've seen ever since that time?
Joe Biden (19:48):
Now, here's what I fear: I fear that our allies around the world are going to begin to doubt whether we're going to stay where we've always been the last eight years. For example, when we had the first G7 meeting, that is the leaders of the European nations in England, hosted by your government… We sat down the first meeting, I think it was in February of my first year. And I sat there and I looked and I said, "America's back." And Manuel looked at me and said, "For how long? For how long?"
(20:33)
I take some responsibility and credit for rebuilding NATO. We added two significant powers to the NATO. 10 days before Dr. Kissinger died, he called me and he said, "Not since Napoleon has Paris, not looked over its shoulder at Moscow with a feeling of dread until you came along. NATO is stronger. They can't do that. They know."
(20:57)
And so in the meantime, I still remember what Manuel said. He said, "For how long?" Now here we are. We did all that. And in four years, we got a guy who wants to walk away from it all.
(21:11)
I'm worried that Europe's going to lose confidence in the certainty of America and the leadership of America in the world to deal with, not only NATO, but other matters that of a consequence.
(21:24)
Look, what did we do? I was able to put together AUKUS. That is an alliance in Asia, Australia, Japan, United States, India. I mean, the idea that we're in a situation where we've moved in a direction that… For example, in Africa, Africa's going to have 50% of the world's population. 50% of the world's population, I think is, by 2080.
Nick Robinson (21:49):
I can hear your passion. I can hear your anxiety that the world is changing the way it has. And for a long time you believed, you said, "I'm the man who can stop Donald Trump." And you did once. And in the end, you withdrew from that election campaign at the last minute. It's a question you know lots of people ask you, "Mr. president, did you leave it too late? Should you have withdrawn earlier given someone else a bigger charge?"
Joe Biden (22:19):
I don't think it would've mattered. We left at a time when we had a good candidate. She was fully funded. And what happened was I had become… What we had set out to do, no one thought we could do and become so successful in our agenda.
(22:46)
It was hard to say, "Now I'm going to stop now." I meant what I said when I started, that I think I'm prepared to hand this to the next generation as a transition government, but things move so quickly that it made it difficult to walk away to get… And it was a hard decision, but-
Nick Robinson (23:14):
Regrets though?
Joe Biden (23:16):
No, I think it was the right decision. I think that… Well, it was just a difficult decision.
Nick Robinson (23:28):
But you shouldn't have taken it earlier?
Joe Biden (23:31):
Well, I don't think so. I mean, I don't know how that would've made much difference.
Nick Robinson (23:37):
I want to thank you for giving us this interview on VE Day and give you a chance just to reflect finally a little bit about the people you've met over the years. Because you were telling me when I first met you about the veterans that you've met last year in Normandy, when you went for the 80th anniversary of D-Day.
Joe Biden (23:56):
An incredible generation, and they're fading out. And I sat with them and they talked about how much it mattered to them, what they were proud that they had stopped, this fascism, what they had done.
(24:18)
I was in the cemetery two years before when I went over to Normandy and I was walking through the graveyards. And graveyard, they meticulously kept in the American cemetery and thousands of dead Americans. And I looked and I knelt down. I thought I saw there was two crosses, next one, of the father and a son. I thought, "My God."
(24:48)
I was not kneeling, but squatted down. And all of a sudden I heard behind me, "Attention!" I turned around, there was a gentleman with a VFW hat on, a veteran's hat on. And he saluted me, said, "Mr. President." And I said, "Thank you. Thank you for what you did."
(25:05)
And he put his hand on his wife's shoulder and said, "No, no, thank her. She did it." And I looked at him and he said, "She was part of the effort. She built the ships that got us here. She built this. Stepped up, the entire generation, women of our country stepped up." He said, "I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud of her."
(25:29)
The men and women I met knew when they got off of landing craft, when they came into those gliders that there was likely to die as live. And they did it. They did it anyway because they felt it was worth dying for if need be. They had to stop this maniac, Hitler. They had to maintain democracy and they're willing to give their lives to do it. An incredible, incredible, incredible generation.
Nick Robinson (25:57):
And finally, this is about values as well, isn't it?
Joe Biden (25:59):
It sure is.
Nick Robinson (26:01):
You've talked very movingly about your late son, Beau, who served in Iraq. And said that in many ways the values he embodied were like the values embodied by the Wartheim generation. Is that the plea that you want to make for those values to be maintained in your country?
Joe Biden (26:20):
It is. Look, my son was a good man. And my dad used to have a saying. He said, "Look, Joey, everyone, everyone's entitled to be treated with dignity no matter who they are, no matter where they're from."
(26:42)
And my son ran for Attorney General and won. And he was a likely candidate for governor. He was offered the Senate seat and he turned it down because he didn't want to be given the Senate seat, appointed.
(27:04)
And one day I came home on a Friday and I came home and I got a call on a Monday. He said, "What are you doing on Friday, dad?" And I said, "Now what do you need?"
(27:14)
He said, "I want you to pin my bars on." I said, "Pin your bars on? You're married, what…"
(27:19)
"I joined the National Guard. I think I have an obligation as an Attorney General."
(27:25)
When his unit got sent to Iraq, he decided he had to go with them. They wouldn't let him go because you're either state property or federal property. If you're a National Guard, you're the state.
(27:40)
So he decided that… I didn't understand why he kept coming to Washington. He was able to work it out. So he would give up his attorney general's job while he was in the National Guard, and he went to Iraq for a year because he thought it was his duty to do so. Unfortunately, he lived not very far from a burn pit, and he acquired stage four glioblastoma, more brain disease than… Anyway. And he died.
Nick Robinson (28:11):
This VE Day, your minds are on finally, the values of people like your son and people you met in Normandy.
Joe Biden (28:20):
And I still think that the values of vast majority of American people value, do everything we can to avoid war, but not yield to the tyrants, not yield.
Nick Robinson (28:32):
President Biden, thank you very much for your time.
Joe Biden (28:34):
Thank you.
Nick Robinson (28:37):
It's clear that the passion which drove Joe Biden into politics in this magnificent hotel in Wilmington, in Delaware, is undimmed, clear too that the belief of the man who was born in the Second World War in the importance of the Atlantic Alliance is undiminished.
(28:55)
Perhaps that's one explanation for why he ignored for so long those who were saying he needed to withdraw from the race against Donald Trump. He and others are now left to reflect whether a different decision would've made any difference.
(29:10)
I sense that he believes that we are though what he calls an inflection point, a once in five or six generation moment of change. A change that means pretty much everything he's taken for granted for his whole adult life will now be different. That's it from this edition, a Political Thinking. Thank you for watching.
