Senate Hearing on Potential Deportations

Mr. Durbin (00:00):

President-elect Trump has pledged that on the first day of his new administration, he will declare a national emergency and use our military as part of a mass deportation plan. I've made a living out of politics as have my colleagues at the table here. During the course of the campaign, you can make promises. Sometimes they come true and sometimes they don't. The notion of Mexico building a wall on our southern border was repeated over and over again. It didn't happen. There was an extension of the wall on our border, but Mexico didn't pay for it. Things change when you go from high-flying campaign rhetoric to ground. Think about for a moment, using our military for a mass deportation plan. I'm sure it would have a damaging impact on the morale of the troops, rounding up people in their own communities at a time when we're already facing the most serious recruitment challenge in years. Listen to the words of Stephen Miller, who now has been promoted to a higher-level position, Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy for incoming President Trump.

(01:11)
Here's what Stephen Miller said, "In terms of personnel, you go to the Red State Governors and you say, give us your National Guard. We will deputize them as immigration enforcement officers, and if you're going to go into an unfriendly state like Maryland," Stephen Miller said, " Well, there would just be Virginia doing the arrests in Maryland, very close, very nearby." Almost a nonchalant attitude toward the notion of sending National Guard from one state to the other to end up sending people out of this country. In addition to weakening our military, it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars to deport every undocumented immigrant in our country. It would damage our economy and separate American families. Instead, we should focus on deporting those who are truly a danger to America and we should give the rest a chance to earn legal status. They would have to register with the government, certainly pay their taxes and submit to serious background checks.

(02:17)
Most Americans, nearly two out of three, agree we should give lawful status to undocumented immigrants who don't pose a threat to our country. That's what we did in 2013, a bipartisan group of eight senators, including myself, Ranking Member Graham, drafted a bill to reform our immigration laws and secure our border, 2013 it was. That bill passed the Senate 68 to 32. Unfortunately, it wasn't taken up by the House of Representatives and the Republican majority. The notion behind that was that everyone would be under requirement to come forward and identify themselves to the government, all the undocumented in this country. And if they identified themselves, went through a background check, paid their taxes, they could continue to live and work here without fear of deportation. In fact, in our bill over a long period of time and a really long period of time, they could be on a path to legality and citizenship. That's a starting point that I think makes sense. Not mass deportation, but mass accountability so we know who's here.

(03:26)
And how would it would make a difference? We would go to E-Verify to make sure that if you didn't go through that process in our bill, you couldn't legally work in the United States, so there was an enforcement. It was serious. I'm glad I was part of that effort and I hope we can return to the discussion. Over the weekend by President-elect Trump, I watched his interview on Meet the Press, he said some positive things from my point of view, and he really challenged us on the Democratic side to work with him when it came to the dreamers, I accept the challenge. Name the time and place, Mr. President, I'll be there. The reality is that Congress for almost 40 years has failed to fix our broken immigration system. We've had opportunities to do it. I hope we can find more in the future. We should use our 2013 immigration bill as a starting point instead of mass deportations. As I said, mass accountability. Let's fix our broken immigration system in a way that protects our country and honors our heritage as a nation of immigrants. Now I recognize Senator Graham.

Mr. Graham (04:34):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. From our point of view over here, one of the primary issues facing the American people in 2024 for President and other elections, who is best able to control a broken border? Most Americans are sympathetic, kind-hearted people who feel like the Biden administration was criminally negligent in protecting us by having a broken border and allowing drugs to pour into our country to kill tens of thousands of young people, allow people to come into our country who are convicted felons to do damage to families who we'll hear from today. That nightmare is coming to a close. In January of 2025, the Republican Senate will make its top priority a transformational border security bill that will be taken up and passed by budget committee, increasing the number of bed spaces available to detain people instead of releasing them, increasing the number of ICE agents to deal with people who should be deported.

(05:48)
Finish the wall and put technology on the border so we'll have operational control of the border. That's going to be our top priority. I want to cut taxes, but we will cut taxes. But as to the Senate transformational border of security goes first through reconciliation. Over eight million people were encountered during the Biden years, four million released into the country. The non-detained docket that we have as a nation is over seven million people. There are 600 and something thousand people on that non-detained document that have criminal records. We're going to start sending people out of the country that present a threat to us and should never have been here to begin with. The politics of immigration and broken borders according to a couple of democratic senators was outcome-determinative. I think they're right, so as much as I respect and admire the chairman, I think your focus is misplaced here. You should be working with us to clean up this mess. You should want mass deportations of people here illegally that represent threats to our country.

(07:10)
How do we get to where we're at? The average annual deportation for Obama and Trump was about the same. Along comes Biden. It drops like a rock. When you have people show up and by the millions and the number of people being deported goes down by forty-something percent, you're incentivizing more people to come. It is our belief that the only way you'll get control of the border is for deportations to start early so people will not pay the money to the coyotes and others to come to our border in the first place because they see people leaving, not staying. If we do not have outflow, the inflow will continue. An example of a broken immigration system was the abuse of parole by the Biden administration. Mass parole of people who did not meet the two criteria under the parole statute. The man who's been convicted of killing Laken Riley was paroled into the country because there was no bed space.

(08:20)
There's nothing in the statute that allows parole because we have no place to put you. There's 38,000 beds, we're going to increase that dramatically. One of the witnesses here today, his family was destroyed by a man who had been deported three times. The fourth time was not a charm, so if you're here illegally, get ready to leave. If you're a criminal, we're coming after you first. If you've been paroled illegally, we're not going to give you the roots to attach yourself to our country because you should not have been here in the first place. As to the Dreamers, hopefully we can find a solution to that problem. What I want to do is regain control of a broken border really quickly. The highest number of people on the terrorist watch list in our country exists today. I hope that number will go down pretty quickly. I know Senator Cornyn is on the Intel committee.

(09:21)
In many ways, a broken immigration system has created a ticking time bomb for our national security, so yes, the Republican Party will pass as its top priority, border security, more bed spaces so you don't have to release people that shouldn't be released and more ICE agents to deport people who represent a threat to our country and shouldn't be here to begin with. We're going to do that and to my democratic friends, I think if you resist rational deportation policy, you do so at your own peril. 86% of the people deported under the Trump first term were involved with criminal convictions or pending criminal matters. I have never seen such a mess. It's time to clean that mess up, so come January, help is on the way.

Mr. Durbin (10:22):

Thank you. Senator Graham. We have an immigration subcommittee and chairing that committee is Senator Padilla, and ranking member, Senator Cornyn. They each ask for a chance to make an opening statement. I recognize Senator Padilla.

Mr. Padilla (10:36):

Thank you Mr. Chairman and the Senator Graham and I want to thank each and every one of the witnesses that are here to for obviously a timely and important discussion but taking place during an uncertain and unnerving time for many in our nation's history. I'm going to deviate for a second from my prepared remarks just to acknowledge what Senator Graham has begun to lay out. This topic, this issue is certainly complex. It doesn't do the issue and the challenge justice to just say, well, there's so many immigrants in America or so many, some people say illegal, some people say undocumented immigrants in America. When you really must break it down into a number of categories. Are there some number that beyond being in the country, undocumented may be involved with unlawful activities? Yes, and I don't think you're going to find Democrats saying we shouldn't be pursuing actions against violent criminals, but when Senator Graham also suggests, but we hope we can take care of the Dreamers. Dreamers, as you all know, young people who were brought here by their parents at a very young age but have grown up here and are undocumented.

(12:03)
Are they also on the target list for deportation? Or not, because we look at them in a different category. I've had a Republican colleagues want to cooperate and collaborate on legal status and pathways to citizenship for farm workers, for example, and I get back to them and other essential workers in America. But just because you're undocumented, does that mean you are on the target list? Yes or no, or are we going to have the maturity and act responsibly to break down a complex conversation? Because number one, yes, Democrats believe we need an orderly, safe, and humane border. Number two, yes, we should not hesitate to pursue enforcement actions against violent criminals, but let's be clear what we are talking about today. This hearing is on the eve of the next Donald Trump administration and we've heard him for months and months and months now throughout the campaign trail promise mass deportations, we heard him over and over again commit to quote "the largest deportation operation in American history" and we've had big ones. For folks watching at home Google Operation Wetback and begin to do some homework.

(13:26)
We've even heard Donald Trump say that there will be no price tag for deportations and heard him promise on Truth Social to use the United States military to execute it. Now, I can already hear some of the rebuttals from Republican colleagues to suggest that, well, he doesn't really mean all immigrants, he's only talking about violent criminals. Well, I wish I could believe that he's only committing to targeting violent criminals because we agree on that front, but pardon me if I'm skeptical. We've seen him, we've seen Donald Trump in the past and how he operates. Do you remember the Muslim bans he imposed early in his first term and the family separations at the border that we witnessed for years? I've seen enough to know that while he may plan to prioritize, in effect, he will be targeting all undocumented immigrants, which will inevitably include those without criminal convictions of any type.

(14:40)
Now, previous administrations of both parties, you saw some stats being presented, the policy of previous administrations to prioritize the deportation of those with criminal convictions. But what we're hearing from incoming President Trump isn't that. And look at who he has putting in these pivotal roles to help him execute, a loyalist in Kristi Noem at DHS, extremist Stephen Miller as Deputy chief of Staff for Policy and Tom Homan as Border Czar who told undocumented immigrants through the press quote "You should be afraid," end quote. Dreamers, farm workers, that's the message and he promised worksite raids to prosecute anyone who stands in their way. They're pushing an extremist agenda on top of the fact that separating spouses and ripping away children from their parents, citizen children from sometimes undocumented immigrant parents isn't just cruel, it's not just morally wrong. Here's another very important reason why Americans should be concerned. For anybody whose vote this last November was motivated by high prices of food, of housing, of anything else, understand that the mass deportation Donald Trump is describing will be disastrous to our economy.

(16:15)
Again, I'm not trying to justify those involved with criminal activity. We're on all the same page there. I'm talking about non-violent criminal, undocumented immigrants. It is all of us, the American people who will pay for the extremism policies that he has promised. Put aside the millions and millions and millions of dollars to find undocumented immigrants he may be targeting to detain and to remove through the process of deportation. For a minute, don't even count on the funds that will be necessary to hire thousands of border patrol and ICE agents, let alone the cost of constructing detention centers and jails for this operation. Let's focus on the impacts to the economy for American families because the fact is there are millions of undocumented immigrants living in the United States today who are working in industries critical to our entire economy. Undocumented immigrants make up nearly 15% of all construction workers, for example, and roughly half of our agricultural workforce.

(17:39)
Again, if you care about the cost of housing, if you care about food prices at the grocery store, you should be paying attention because if tomorrow Stephen Miller could snap his fingers and have his way, our annual GDP would drop roughly 6.8%. Imagine all the losses of the great recession and then still shrinking the economy another two and a half points, so what does that mean for folks at home? It's simple. Any industry with a significant percentage of undocumented immigrants will have a harder time finding workers. I know we've all been hearing from employers and business leaders for years now about their struggle already to find sufficient workforce. Stores will have a harder time keeping the shelf stocked, and yes, prices will rise and rise and rise. Hello America, get ready for a more expensive food bill when you're preparing next year's Thanksgiving dinner or next year's Christmas dinner, and if you've been saving up for years and years to try to buy your first home, get ready to wait even longer because construction will slow and prices will go up.

(19:05)
The next time we hear Republicans say that they support Trump's plan to deport waves, waves of undocumented immigrants, let's be clear about what comes with that, higher prices for American families. They're supporting the forced removal of millions of hardworking community members, 80% of whom have lived here 10 years or more. These are not recent arrivals, people who have lived here for years, if not decades. They're supporting fear and uncertainty and immigrant communities that will cause untold numbers of immigrants no matter their status to stay home from work, from school, from shopping. And they're supporting the punishment of over five million workers who Donald Trump's own administration declared to be quote "essential" to our economy, essential workers who fed us and kept us safe during the COVID-19 pandemic. If you agree with the spirit of at least that segment deserves better, then colleagues join me in supporting the citizenship for essential workers at the essential workers that the Trump administration deemed critical to our nation's economy and security.

(20:22)
Let's provide them with some legal status upfront and a pathway to earn citizenship because we need them. Our economy needs farm workers, I'd think you'd agree. Our economy needs construction workers, hospitality and transportation workers, healthcare workers and students and innovators who help keep our economy and our country thriving. We don't need the massive deportations that the political rhetoric of the campaign cycle has brought us, and we certainly don't need the uncertainty, the fear, and the loss that we'll feel for years to come. With that, Mr. Chairman, I'm looking forward to hearing from our witnesses and to today's conversation.

Mr. Durbin (21:08):

Thanks, Senator Padilla. Senator Cornyn.

Mr. Cornyn (21:10):

Thank you Chairman Durbin. Listening to my democratic colleagues, it's as if November 5th never occurred, that we haven't had an election, that we haven't had a referendum on the failed border policies of the Biden-Harris administration. Let's be clear, the crisis at the southern border is entirely a problem caused by the Biden administration's policies. It is a man-made disaster. The election, I believe in large part was a referendum on those policies and the American people spoke decisively rejecting this as the new normal. They rejected lawlessness as the new normal. When President Biden came into office, Customs and Border Protection was apprehending about 70,000 illegal migrants a month. President Biden came in and have reversed virtually all of the Trump administration policies, including canceling our agreements with Mexico and the northern triangle countries to limit illegal immigration. President Biden also attempted to impose 100-day moratorium on all deportations. By March, illegal crossings had ballooned to 170,000 per month up from 70,000 and then climbed progressively higher from there.

(22:40)
Then the President used his executive authority to implement new guidelines that made clear to illegal immigrants that DHS was extremely unlikely to take any action against them until their conduct became especially egregious. Even so criminal aliens were able to get away with a lot before any action would be taken. Take for example, the tragic case of Rachel Morin, the mother of five who was raped and murdered by an illegal migrant. Her killer crossed the border illegally in February of 2023. He was suspected of committing multiple crimes even before he took her life. This tragedy and others like it could have been prevented were it not for President Biden's willful refusal to enforce the law. The truth of the matter is President Biden's willful neglect of border security and public safety has created immense suffering for American families and his administration is fully responsible for the fact that we have to hold this hearing today.

(23:50)
The American people are fed up with the lawlessness at the southern border and in November they tasked Republicans the job of cleaning it up and that we will do. We have a big job ahead of us, no doubt, but by one estimate there are already 1.3 to 1.6 migrants who are under final orders of deportation who are still in the country. That strikes me as a good place to start. People who have been entitled to full due process and hearing in front of an immigration court and are under final orders of deportation, what are they still doing here? Well, it's because of the Biden administration's willful neglect of the law and enforcement. By my calculations the Biden administration, has released at least 3.6 million illegal migrants over the southern border and during the same four years, border patrol recorded an additional 1.7 million gotaways, those are people willfully evading law enforcement. As of 2022, more than one million illegal immigrants had received final orders of removal, but were still present in the United States and that has now ballooned to about 1.3 million plus.

(25:13)
As of July 21st, 2024, ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement had more than 660,000 criminal aliens on its national docket. I look forward to doing what the American people voted for on November 5th, which is to restore the law and enforcement of the law as the new normal in America, unlike the last four years. And it's going to require us to do a lot of work to clean up the mess left by the previous administration's policies. We have to make it absolutely clear to prospective illegal immigrants that we will enforce our immigration laws. We will not accept illegal border crossings as the new normal. What we will accept is lawful orderly humane immigration policies. We are the most generous country in the world when it comes to naturalizing people coming to our country, roughly a million people a year. That's the right way to do it, not the way the Biden administration had it done. We will follow through on the orders of removal by immigration courts and again, we will not accept lawlessness and criminality in the United States as the new normal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Durbin (26:41):

Thanks, Senator Cornyn. Today we welcome five witnesses. I'll introduce the three majority witnesses and then turn to ranking member Graham to introduce the two minority witnesses. Our first witness is Foday Turay. I hope I was close to pronouncing it correctly. Thank you. He is protected from deportation under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, also known as DACA, created under President Obama. Mr. Turay now serves as an assistant district attorney in the city of Philadelphia. Our second witness is retired major general Randy Manner, who served our nation in a variety of positions in the Pentagon and around the world for 30 years, including acting vice chiefs of the National Guard Bureau in which he oversaw that important part of our military defense. Finally, we are joined by Aaron Reichlin-Melnick, a senior fellow at the American Immigration Council where he works to inform the American public about immigration policy and advance fact-based research into enforcement. Ranking Member Graham, would you like to introduce your witnesses?

Mr. Graham (27:54):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our first witness is Mr. Arthur. He's a resident fellow in law and policy at the Center for Immigration Studies. Prior to joining the center in 2017, he served as an immigration judge, was associate general counsel of Immigration Naturalization Service. He served as staff director for the National Security Subcommittee on the House, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform and counsel on the House Judiciary Committee. He is an expert on immigration policy. He has decided thousands of cases, has testified before Congress on more than 10 occasions. He received his JD from George Washington University and his bachelor's from University of Virginia.

(28:42)
Ms. Morin is here with us again. She is from Aberdeen, Maryland. She's retired but currently works part-time as an office administrator for a church. She has six children, stay-at-home mom for 25 years and homeschooled her children. She is mother of Rachel Morin and she joins us today to share Rachel's story. Real quickly, Senator Cornyn mentioned this, but the man who stands accused of murdering Rachel was deported three times, is suspected of murdering a woman in El Salvador where he came from, broke into a home in California and assaulted a young girl who's pending trial like everybody else. He's innocent until proven guilty, but this case not only has destroyed your family and broken your heart, Ms. Morin, it should be a wake-up call to the country. And I got the call and we're going to do something about this. Thank you.

Mr. Durbin (29:54):

Thanks Senator Graham. We're going to proceed as follows, I'm going to swear in the witnesses. They each have five minutes to make presentations and then we open it to the senators who have each five minutes to ask questions. My first request is for the five witnesses to please stand and take the oath. Do you affirm the testimony you're about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? The record reflect that the five witnesses answered in the affirmative. Mr. Turay, you're first.

Mr. Foday Turay (30:29):

Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, a member of this committee, good morning.

Mr. Durbin (30:34):

Good morning.

Mr. Foday Turay (30:35):

And thank you all for inviting me to speak with you today. Before I begin, I'd like to express my deep sympathy to Patty Morin for the horror she and her family have endured. My prayers are with you and those dedicated fighting for justice. My name is Foday Turay, I'm a DACA recipient, a prosecutor, a husband and a dad, and without question, a patriot. My love for this country stems from elementary school days when I recited the Pledge of Allegiance with all my classmates each morning. My family came to the United States in search of freedom and safety. I was born in Sierra Leone at a time of great civil unrest. When I was four years old, my father was killed and my mother and grandmother and I fled to Guinea, a neighboring country. My mother was able to migrate to the United States, but I stayed with my grandmother who died shortly after my mother left. I came to the United States on my seventh birthday in 2003. I have been here ever since. I learned that I was undocumented when I tried to get a driver's license.

(31:53)
It was one of the worst days of my life. In 2012, I was thrown on a lifeline when DACA was announced. Thanks to DACA, I was able to graduate from college and attend law school on a full merit scholarship. I now work full time for the district attorney's office in Philadelphia. During this time, I met and married my beautiful wife, Jaxiel, who is here with me today, and we bought a house and we had our son. The opportunity to address all of you on behalf of DACA recipient and mixed status families like mine is not one I take for granted. My wife and I have spent years building community and we're extremely anxious about what the future might bring. I feel the consequences of mass deportation on a personal level, on a community level, and on a societal level. On a personal level, my wife is here and I have no family in Sierra Leone to help sustain me. I'm currently the breadwinner in my family. If I were to be deported,

Mr. Foday Turay (33:00):

My wife and our son would be left without to pay the mortgage. My son would also be without a father. My deportation would hurt my own U.S. citizen mother and my wife's extended family, all of whom a United States citizens. My wife is the primary caregiver of her mother who is legally disabled and has a tumor in her brain. My wife's mother requires chemotherapy injection each month in order to control the size of the tumor on her brain. If I were to be deported, my wife would no longer be able to play such a critical role in her mother's life. My wife should not have to choose between caring for her mother who's legally disabled and has a brain tumor, and me. My brother-in-law should not have to choose between relisting the Marines next year and risking his mother's health if my wife is not here to care for her. My brother-in-law has been serving in the United States Marines since he graduated high school.

(34:11)
On a community level, my taxes help fund my community's road, school and overall well-being. If I were to be ripped from my community, the taxes I pay would go with me. My wife and I are also devoted Christians with strong ties to our church. Finally, the people of Philadelphia would be hurt if I were to disappear. Victims of crimes whose cases I prosecute will lose an ally in their fight for justice. On a society level, mass deportation would be devastating. As a prosecutor, I know how delicate the ties between law enforcement and immigrants can be. If immigrants are afraid to cooperate with the police or prosecutors like myself because they're afraid of deportation, we all suffer.

(34:59)
When you have ICE agents patrolling courthouses and police stations, you create a category of people who are less willing to report crimes and less willing to cooperate with law enforcement solving in crimes. Mass deportation hurts all of us, our family, our community, and our society. We owe it to ourselves and to our country to reject mass deportation and look for a solution for dreamers whose lives have become deeply rooted in the country and strengthen our borders. Doc recipients and long-term undocumented individuals and mixed status families have become pillars in their homes. Removing them will place hardship on U.S. citizens like my mother-in-law, U.S. citizens like my wife, who depends on our contribution in the house.

(35:48)
This will cause an incentive for those U.S. citizens to turn to social welfare programs due to one less income in the home. After more than two decades here, I can absolutely state that this is my home. I'm part of the fabric of my community and they're part of me. The federal government may not have fully recognized this truth yet, but I long for the day when they do. Until that day comes, I'll continue to contribute everything to my house, to my mother-in-law, to my son, to my wife, and to my entire family. Thank you all so much for your time and attention to this critical issue.

Mr. Durbin (36:32):

Thank you, Mr. Turay. Mr. Arthur.

Andrew Arthur (36:36):

Chairman Durbin, ranking member Graham and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me today. My name is Andrew Arthur and I'm the resident fellow in law and policy at the Center for Immigration Studies nonpartisan think tank here in Washington. Respectfully and humbly, I believe that today's hearing, which focuses on the immigration enforcement policies of the incoming Trump administration is premature because as of yet, the incoming administration has not announced its policies. Given that, however, the committee should assume two things. First, that the policies the new administration will implement will comport with law. And second, that those policies will implement enforcement mandates Congress has set forth in the Immigration and Nationality Act.

(37:21)
As the Supreme Court has made clear the principle that Congress is entrusted exclusively with the formulation of policies relating to the entry of aliens and the right to remain here "Has become about as firmly embedded in the legislative and judicial tissues of our body politic as any aspect of our government." Right now, the U.S. immigration system is at a breaking point. The number of cases pending before the immigration courts is nearly tripled in the past five fiscal years, and that's after 700,000 cases involving putatively removable aliens were terminated, dismissed, or closed.

(38:02)
A record 10.8 million plus inadmissible applicants for admission have been encountered nationwide since FYI 2021. And between releases and gotaways, nearly eight million inadmissible aliens have entered our country over the past four years. The sad state of our immigration system is directly attributable to policy decisions that have been made at the local, state and most critically, federal level, not by Congress that has plenary power under our constitutional order over immigration, but by an executive branch that has usurped Congress's authority. That is needlessly rendered the American people vulnerable to predation by criminals and aliens who pose national security risk.

(38:48)
And as the chairman of the Federal Reserve has admitted, it has dampened wages for American workers, both citizens and lawful immigrants, and impacted the unemployment rate. Most critically, however, it has ruined the faith of the American people and the credibility of our immigration system. As Barbara Jordan, civil rights icon, former member of Congress, and at the time, chairman of the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform told Congress in 1990, "Credibility and immigration policy can be summed up in one sentence. Those who should get in, get in. Those who should be kept out are kept out. And those who should not be here will be required to leave."

(39:29)
With deportations, including deportations of criminal aliens, plunging over the past four years, Senator Graham's chart showed, it's little wonder that, as Gallup reported in July, a majority of Americans want an immigration reduction, reversing a nineteen-year trend. The law mandates that illegal migrants be detained, but that law has been ignored. The law mandates that alien criminals be removed, but that law has been ignored. And most crucially, the law mandates that foreign nationals who want to come here do so legally, but that law has only been honored in the breach.

(40:05)
This massive migrant surge has allowed our elected officials to ignore the fact that 22.5% of working-age American men are out of the workforce. A 7.6% increase compared to just 2000, and 11.2% more than in 1960. Those non-working Americans are more vulnerable to addiction, disease and "Deaths of despair." Two weeks ago when the United Kingdom Prime Minister Keir Starmer resolved to address the immigration source of such issues in Great Britain, and it's well past time that our government did the same. In his 1995 State of the Union address, President Bill Clinton explained, "All Americans, not only in the States most heavily affected, but in every place in this country are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country. The jobs they hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants. The public service they use impose burdens on our taxpayers. That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record number of new border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by borrowing welfare benefits to illegal aliens."

(41:24)
Change the tenses, and that's pretty much what President Trump promised to do when he was candidate Trump on the campaign trail. Thank you. Truly appreciate the honor and I look forward to your questions.

Mr. Durbin (41:37):

Thanks, Mr. Arthur. General Manner.

Gen. Randy Manner (41:39):

Chairman Durbin, ranking member Graham, members of the committee, I thank you for your invitation to speak today. For over 35 years, I served our nation in both the regular army and in the National Guard. Prior to retiring from the Army as a major general, I served as a deputy commanding general of the United States third Army in Kuwait, as the acting vice chief of the National Guard Bureau, and as the acting and deputy director of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency. During the time I served, I saw firsthand that our military force is the envy of the world. It is respected by our allies and by people around the world who want to live free of oppression. It is feared by our enemies and those who would do us harm.

(42:24)
Our military members come from every possible background, representing every state, every race, ethnic group, and religion. But when they come together in the military, they are molded together in a team expected to embody the values which make America great. Duty, honor, integrity, respect, selfless service, loyalty, personal courage, and excellence. President-elect Trump has announced his intent to use the U.S. military to execute his mass deportation plan. I'm gravely concerned that placing our military in this role could cause significant harm to both the institution of our armed forces and to service members themselves.

(43:09)
There are four significant risks that I want to emphasize. First, using military assets for mass deportations would negatively impact the military's readiness and capability to accomplish its core mission of national defense. Our military is engaged in over 160 countries around the world. They are focused on responding to potential threats from China, Russia, and other competitors, strengthening interoperability with allies and partners, and taking care of our servicemen and their families. Our National Guard units are stretched thin, responding to natural disasters at home, while also regularly deploying overseas in active duty status. Additional training or deployments to support deportation operations would absolutely harm operational readiness and reduce the military's ability to counter adversaries or respond to crises in combat.

(44:04)
My second concern is that the military is simply not trained to do this mission. Immigration enforcement is the responsibility of federal law enforcement agencies like ICE and CBP. These agencies personnel regularly interact with migrants and U.S. citizens. They're extensively trained in the appropriate application of immigration law, the protection of civil rights and civil liberties, and care of migrants in custody. The U.S. military is the best trained in the world for its warfighting mission, but it is neither trained or equipped for immigration enforcement. Most active duty armed forces receive no training for domestic law enforcement situations. A small number of National Guard units receive a mere four to eight hours of civil disturbance training per year. This lack of training and experience greatly increases the risk of significant and potentially deadly mistakes in a charged operational environment.

(45:07)
My third concern is the effect on recruiting, retention, and morale. The military is already facing its most challenging recruitment environment in 50 years. Involvement of the military in a politically charged domestic deportation efforts would only add to those challenges. It would separate service members from their families, their jobs, and their communities for extended periods of time in order to engage in a highly controversial mission for which service members would feel ill-equipped and trained. That's a recipe for disillusionment and a poor advertisement for political, for potential recruits.

(45:44)
Finally, involving the military in a politically charged domestic issue like mass deportation would erode public trust in the military. Americans trust our military because it protects all of us regardless of our politics from the possibility of foreign aggression. When the military is tasked with carrying out domestic policies that may be controversial to some, it undermines the foundation of that trust. That in turn will increase risks in morale, recruitment, retention, and readiness. And all of these impacts carry serious consequences for our national security.

(46:21)
Gentlemen, for these reasons, and ladies, for these reasons, I strongly encourage any future presidential administration to keep immigration enforcement and our military separate. Thank you and I look forward to our questions.

Mr. Durbin (46:35):

Thanks, General Manner. Ms. Morin.

Ms. Patty Morin (46:40):

Chairman, ranking members, senators, thank you for this opportunity to come speak to you. I really appreciate it. As you can tell from my introduction, I'm not a politician. I'm a mother. I raised six children. I have 25 grandchildren. I have four great-grandchildren. The day that we got the phone call that my daughter had been murdered, I'm sure you've heard this before, but I was in Kentucky. We had a grand-baby that had passed away. And when I got the phone call, the detective said, "Mrs. Morin, we found your daughter's body." At the time, all I knew was that my daughter was dead.

(47:23)
When I went to meet with a detective and we had come back from Kentucky, I was told that she was beaten so badly that her body was blanketed and bruises, that she was strangled, that she was raped, and that she was stuffed into a drainpipe. The person that they alleged did this was an illegal immigrant from El Salvador that was a gotaway. They already had an Interpol warrant for him in El Salvador for murdering a woman. He had attacked a nine-year-old and her mother in California. And he waited on the trail that day that our family has walked for 25 years and snapped, dragged my daughter off the trail and did these horrendous, brutal things.

(48:18)
This is what she looked like before that day. She's a beautiful woman. But more than that, you can tell from looking at her, just the light that comes out of her, she was a happy person. She loved her children. She was a hard worker. My daughter is like so many other American girls that go about their life and they're just caught unawares from behind, dragged off the main road, trail, whatever, strangled, raped, murdered. Some have been found, some have not. I realized that deportation and illegal immigration has become such a big issue. And rightly so, we have Americans that are dying every day. And law enforcement don't want to give you the true numbers because they don't want the public to panic.

(49:23)
In our town, we've had two murders by illegal immigrants. Maryland is a sanctuary state and we have sanctuary cities. I was last told that crime in Maryland has increased by 850% over the last four years. We have over 54,000 convicted criminals, illegal immigrants that are criminals, in our country at this very moment. I think deportation is necessary. The American people should not feel afraid to live in their own homes. When I was 14 years old, and I don't know if anybody knows this, but when I was 14 years old, a criminally insane man came into my house, kidnapped me, made me walk 60 miles towards the Canadian border while raping me at night. I have some idea of what it's like to be a victim of a violent crime where law enforcement did not believe that they were going to find me alive. So I have some understanding of what my daughter suffered.

(50:36)
And when I was at that funeral home and saw my daughter's body, because the case, the hearing is not until April, I can't tell you in detail, but I can tell you this one thing that my daughter suffered so terribly in a very brutal and violent way. And these type of immigrants should not be in our country. And because we have open borders and because everyone is allowed in and because the law is not being carried out at the borders, if they had done a DNA swab the three times they encountered this person that's allegedly accused of killing my daughter, they would've known that he had an Interpol warrant for murder in his country.

(51:26)
We need to follow the laws that are already on the book. We need to close our borders. We need to protect American families. We need to protect our women and children, which are the most vulnerable in this country. And I do understand the economics that everyone is talking about. I do understand the military position. But I think that you should put American citizens first. We are the ones that pay your paycheck. We are the ones that pay taxes. We are the ones that believe that when you went into office, that you're going to keep your word, and that you were the man or the woman for the job at the time that would uphold our values. We are a constitutional republic, for the people, by the people. We the people have put you the people into office, and you should be doing everything you can to protect us. That's why we put you there. A thought that I had just today coming on the train over here is that when you look at a tree and you say, "Oh, that's an apple tree," you say that because you see that the apple is the fruit that's growing on the tree. It's the same thing with a man's character. It's by your actions that a person knows what their character is like. And I think one of the reasons why 87% of Americans voted for Donald Trump is because they have seen the character by the fruit that President Biden and Kamala Harris have produced these last four years. Thank you.

Mr. Durbin (53:16):

Thank you, Ms. Morin. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (53:22):

Chairman Durbin, ranking member Graham, and distinguished members of the committee. My name is Aaron Reichlin-Melnick and I'm the senior fellow at the American Immigration Council. At the council, we have long studied the population of immigrants in the United States and provide detailed estimates of their demographics and economic contributions on our Map The Impact website. Today, there are at least 13 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. President-elect Trump has promised a mass deportation campaign with the stated intent of rounding up and deporting every single one of them. So who are they? Well, most have been here for at least 15 years, having entered before the Obama administration.

(54:03)
Over 4.8 million people have been here for 25 years or more with no path to permanent legal status, no line for them to stand in. Most undocumented immigrants have spent decades living, working and putting down roots all at constant risk of deportation. Nearly all are either employed or attending school. Some have permission to work legally. Most do not, putting them at increased risk of exploitation. They're farm workers, meat packers, cooks, waiters, construction workers, factory workers, delivery people, home health aides, nurses, teachers, artists, writers, musicians, entrepreneurs, and yes, even lawyers.

(54:45)
Undocumented immigrants are also more than their jobs. They are parents, spouses, partners, brothers and sisters, grandparents and grandchildren, loved ones and friends to millions of U.S. citizens and permanent residents. Five million U.S. citizen children have at least one undocumented parent. In an average public school classroom of 25 children, at least two have an undocumented immigrant parent at risk of deportation. While President-elect Trump talks about targeting criminals, over 90% have no prior criminal record whatsoever. Of the small minority that do, the most common prior convictions are traffic offenses or immigration offenses. Efforts to ramp up deportations would sweep in tens of thousands of people each year who have no or minimal criminal legal system contact.

(55:35)
We know this because this is what happened during the first Trump administration. When there were no enforcement priorities, everyone was an enforcement priority. And the single largest group of that increased arrests under the Trump administration was people with no criminal record. Beyond splitting families apart, a mass deportation campaign would be a costly mistake for American taxpayers. When we account for the enormous capital investment, infrastructure and hiring necessary to arrest, detain, process and remove one million people per year, we estimate that mass deportations would cost $968 billion in total, enough to instead construct 2.9 million new homes or fund Head Start for 79 years.

(56:17)
Mass deportations would also cause economic chaos. As millions are expelled, the U.S. population and labor force would shrink. So too with the economy. Prices would rise in sectors with significant undocumented workforces. Building, maintaining and repairing houses would become more expensive, as would groceries, restaurants, travel and child care. Every American would feel the pinch of inflation. Overall, we estimate that a mass deportation campaign would lead to a loss in total GDP of 4.2 to 6.8%, at minimum, as much as the Great Recession. And just like then, many Americans would lose their jobs.

(56:57)
Even an attempt to deport millions of people will have repercussions. After all, undocumented immigrants are not just producers, they're also consumers. Collectively, they hold over a quarter trillion dollars in annual purchasing power. If millions are deported or otherwise forced to leave, American businesses will close, not just from a lack of workers, but also from a lack of customers. A large-scale mass deportation campaign will also increase exploitation while it is carried out. Unscrupulous employers will dangle deportation over any of their workers who dare to push back and will have the full force of the U.S. government to support their threats.

(57:35)
But mass deportation is not the only option. Congress could instead create a new path to permanent legal status, allowing many people already living here to file an application, go through a background check, pay a fee, and get their papers in order. When the council studied the impact of Reagan's 1986 amnesty, we concluded that legalization would be the cheapest federal workforce development and anti-poverty program for children in history. It would also raise overall wages, create new jobs, increase tax revenues, and create a level playing field and fair competition for U.S. workers.

(58:12)
The president-elect's mass deportation plans would crash the American economy, break up families, and take a hammer to the foundations of our society, by deporting nearly 4% of the entire U.S. Population. But Congress has a choice. Instead of going down that path, we can instead crack down on exploitation, strengthen millions of families, and build American prosperity by providing undocumented immigrants a way to fix their papers. The choice is clear. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

Mr. Durbin (58:43):

Thank you very much. Each of us now has five minutes of questions, and I'm going to start mine with Mr. Turay. Mr. Turay, are you undocumented?

Mr. Foday Turay (58:52):

Yes.

Mr. Durbin (58:52):

Pardon me. Say it again.

Mr. Foday Turay (58:54):

Yes, Senator.

Mr. Durbin (58:55):

And why are you undocumented?

Mr. Foday Turay (58:58):

I came here from a civil unrest. I had no choice. My life was in danger. My mom told me the story when I was trying to get my driver's license.

Mr. Durbin (59:08):

How old were you when you came?

Mr. Foday Turay (59:09):

I came here when I was seven years old.

Mr. Durbin (59:11):

What do you do today?

Mr. Foday Turay (59:13):

I'm a prosecutor. I represent victims of crimes and go after heinous people that have committed crimes against the Morin's family.

Mr. Durbin (59:20):

You've talked about Ms. Morin's situation a minute or so earlier, but the perpetrator of the crime against her daughter Rachel would be the type of person that you would prosecute?

Mr. Foday Turay (59:31):

Yes, Senator.

Mr. Durbin (59:33):

I think there is a fundamental difference we're being asked to acknowledge here. Is there a difference between Mr. Turay and the animal who attacked Ms. Morin's daughter? Of course there is. This man, for a living, is prosecuting criminals. This other individual is a clear criminal with a record. When we say massive deportation, should we consider them the same because they're both undocumented? Let me ask you this, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Most Americans, when you talk about the cost to the government in billions of dollars for this deportation, are going to say what most of us would fundamentally say, "Keep me safe. I don't care what the hell it costs." So is it realistic if we're talking about a massive deportation for us to be looking at federal budgets for financing?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:00:28):

I think it's important for people to understand that ICE already goes after people with criminal records all the time. And in fact, that has been the priority of the previous two to three or more presidential administrations and is what Congress sets. So the overwhelming majority of people who would be the targets of a mass deportation campaign do not have criminal records. They are people who have been living otherwise law-abiding lives in this country, living, working, and in many cases, paying taxes.

Mr. Durbin (01:00:56):

So you estimate, at least in one publication here, that the cost of massive deportation would be $316 billion.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:01:05):

At a minimum. In fact, if you look at it over the course of an eleven-year operation, it could be as much as a trillion dollars.

Mr. Durbin (01:01:11):

And that's for conducting sufficient arrest, detaining immigrants en masse, legal processing, and removal for those four categories.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:01:28):

That's right. And we're looking at hundreds of billions of dollars to carry out in deportation of 4% of the U.S. population.

Mr. Durbin (01:01:36):

So if you want to do a massive deportation to get Mr. Turay out of this country, you're talking about a massive amount of money that has to be spent.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:01:43):

Enormous sums.

Mr. Durbin (01:01:45):

And we hear from General Manner the impact it could have on our National Guard and military if they are given this responsibility. Have you taken that into consideration?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:01:55):

We weren't even able to account for the costs of the military. So you should consider our estimates to be conservative. The actual costs would likely be significantly higher because there are so many factors that we couldn't even attempt to estimate.

Mr. Durbin (01:02:08):

You're right. To carry out over 13 million arrests in a short period of time would require somewhere between 220,000 and 409,000 new government employees and law enforcement officers, nearly impossible given current hiring challenges across law enforcement agencies. Could you explain that?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:02:27):

Well, right now, ICE only has about 8,500 officers in the entire agency. And less than a thousand are assigned to fugitive operations, whose job it is, is to go out into the community and arrest people. But because the overwhelming majority of undocumented immigrants have no interaction with the criminal justice system, they have no criminal offenses, that means that to arrest them would require going out into the community, finding them and rounding them up. And in order to do that would require an enormous investment in personnel, far beyond any law enforcement operation ever conducted in the United States history.

Mr. Durbin (01:03:01):

So if we are determined to remove Mr. Turay, the prosecutor from Philadelphia, from America, and send him back to Sierra Leone or someplace like that, you're talking about massive amounts of money. If we are to focus on the truly dangerous people in this country, to make sure that they are removed and should be, that is a lesser amount for sure.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:03:24):

That's right. In fact, if you look at data on ICE's own data, non-detained docket, which has already been cited by several members here, that is looking at about 1.2% or less of people who have any sort of serious violent offense. And of course, the resources involved there would be much smaller than trying to deport 13 million people.

Mr. Durbin (01:03:43):

Making a priority, the dangerous people who are in this country are those who are here illegally and could be dangerous, certainly is a much different assignment than saying massive deportations. Thank you. Mr. Melvick. Senator Graham.

Mr. Graham (01:03:58):

Does anybody disagree with the following statement? America has a right to limit how many people can come into our country.

Andrew Arthur (01:04:09):

No.

Mr. Graham (01:04:10):

Nobody disagrees with that. Good. Mr. Turay, very successful life. You have much to be proud of. During the four years of the Trump administration, were you ever… Anybody suggest you should be deported?

Mr. Foday Turay (01:04:29):

Thank you, senator, for the question. No.

Mr. Graham (01:04:31):

Okay. Do you support deporting the 1.2 million people who have been through the system, have a final order of removal? Do you support them leaving?

Mr. Foday Turay (01:04:48):

Senator, I'm a prosecutor. I do have-

Mr. Graham (01:04:51):

No. No. No. No. I didn't ask you if you're prosecutor. Do you support them leaving?

Mr. Foday Turay (01:04:55):

I support people that have committed serious crimes.

Mr. Graham (01:04:58):

Do you support the people who have gone through the system, been denied, had their day in court, final order removal? Do you support them leaving?

Mr. Foday Turay (01:05:09):

If you have committed-

Mr. Graham (01:05:10):

As a prosecutor, as a rule of law person.

Mr. Foday Turay (01:05:12):

If you have committed a serious crime in this country-

Mr. Graham (01:05:15):

Oh, no. No. That's not the question. So is it your belief that every non-criminal in the world can come to America?

Mr. Foday Turay (01:05:23):

No.

Mr. Graham (01:05:23):

How many people want to come to America that are non-criminals? Probably hundreds of millions. And I understand why. It's a great country. So my point is, if you're not willing to say that we're going to deport you after you've had your full day in court, you're facing a final order of deportation, we're going to incentivize people to come forever. Mr. Melnick, is that it? Right? How many people did Ronald Reagan provide amnesty to?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:05:53):

Estimates are roughly 2.7 to 3 million.

Mr. Graham (01:05:55):

How many illegal immigrants are in the country today?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:05:58):

I said roughly 13 million of them. Don't know the exact estimates.

Mr. Graham (01:05:59):

Okay.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:06:00):

… Million of them don't know the exact estimates.

Mr. Graham (01:06:01):

I would say that the last thing we want to do is give amnesty to people here now because we'll be overrun. Mr. Arthur, would you describe the last four years as mass illegal immigration coming to our borders?

Andrew Arthur (01:06:17):

I believe that that's fair characterization, Senator.

Mr. Graham (01:06:19):

Does anybody disagree that the last four years has resulted in mass illegal immigration directed toward America? Because if this is not mass, what the hell would be? Now how do you answer mass illegal immigration? You start enforcing the laws Ms. Morin said, and you start sending people back who've had their day in court. You can't answer the question, and I respect you. You've been able to take the opportunity to make something of yourself, but we're passing on just constant disorder. If you can't say you should be deported after you've had a full hearing, everything been available to and you lose and it's hard to say you need to go, we don't have an immigration system. General, how many people have been deployed to the border by governors to assist in border security from the National Guard?

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):

Sir, I don't have that information.

Mr. Graham (01:07:16):

Okay. It's thousands. Is that a legal use of the National Guard?

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):

It is not the illegal use of the National Guard.

Mr. Graham (01:07:23):

It's legal, right?

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):

That is correct.

Mr. Graham (01:07:25):

Yeah, I agree with you there. What's the largest cause of death in America for young people? Does anybody know? Mr. Arthur?

Andrew Arthur (01:07:34):

Drug poisoning overdose deaths.

Mr. Graham (01:07:36):

Coming from a drug called fentanyl mainly?

Andrew Arthur (01:07:38):

That is correct, sir.

Mr. Graham (01:07:40):

Okay. Where does that drug come from?

Andrew Arthur (01:07:42):

That drug, reports indicate that it's made from precursors that come from the People's Republic of China assembled in Mexico and largely smuggled into the United States over the Southwest.

Mr. Graham (01:07:53):

General Manner, do you consider illegal immigration a national security problem?

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):

I believe that it is something that ICE and CBT needs to address.

Mr. Graham (01:08:02):

No, I asked you is it a national security problem?

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):

I think it's a concern, yes.

Mr. Graham (01:08:06):

Okay. I do too. And they're are the highest number of people on the terrorist watch list in our country today. At the end of the day, the number of people being killed in America by drug poisoning is coming from labs and cartels in Mexico. General Manner, does the president have the authority to attack a drug lab in Mexico that's making fentanyl to kill American citizens?

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):

I am not a legal expert, Senator, and I do not know.

Mr. Graham (01:08:37):

So here's what I would say, I think we need to be tough, compassionate, but [inaudible 01:08:45]. If you're trying to poison America, you're a drug cartel. Your days are numbered. We're coming after you, hopefully working with Mexico. If you've had your full day in court and you lost, it's time for you to go and try to do it right. We have to break this endless cycle of having policies that entice people to come to our country illegally because that is the lack… We're losing sovereignty and losing control over our nation. There are too many people being hurt from this out-of-control system. So how do you deal with the mass illegal immigration? You start with mass deportation of people who shouldn't be here. Mr. Turay, think President Trump was pretty clear about DACA, but what do we tell the kids who've been brought here in the last year who are seven years old? Do you ever break this chain?

(01:09:34)
So I'm hoping, Mr. Chairman, that once we regain control of our border and try to shut down the poisoning of America, we can have a logical, rational discussion about Dreamers and others. But until we control that border, until we get control over the crime coming into this country, into the poisoning of America, that discussion cannot happen. I've worked with you and others for really decades to fix a broken immigration system. The way the Biden administration's handled this border problem has created a nightmare for our country. And there's a reason 70% of the people want deportations. It's not because they're mean, they want to bring order to chaos. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):

Senator Klobuchar.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):

Thank you very much Mr. Chairman, thank you for having this hearing and I know that you've worked with Senator Graham in the past on the Dreamers issue and I hope that work continues and I would start with what you said Mr. Arthur, just about how we don't know yet how this is going to come down and I do actually appreciate that Senator Durbin did this hearing because I think we've got to start anticipating it and start having these discussions. Now, I personally don't want to have what happened last time when over a weekend. I got calls from a family in Lebanon who was ready to bring their little baby that they had adopted to the US and were stopped practically at the airport with a little kid with a flag sweatshirt on and we were eventually able, through officials in the past Trump administration to get that baby adopted and is now a thriving child in the US. And so I, Ms. Morin, so appreciate you being here and your strength coming forward.

(01:11:23)
I believe there is a way we could do this right. I'm not certain how this is going to head, but I just want you to know that based on the work that was being done on a bipartisan basis at this last year, that there are people that want to get to this point where we get this order at the border, where we put the funding into enforcement, into things like border patrol agents. And this was legislation that I'm sure not everyone agreed with on both sides, but a proposed legislation that Senator Lankford had negotiated that was supported by a number of people and hopefully that can be at least a starting point for discussing it even though it didn't go anywhere last year and that was increasing ICE detention capacity. It was looking at increasing border management. And I personally have taken a lot of grief for my support for COPS Reauthorization and adding resources to law enforcement, which I think is so necessary with the fentanyl issues.

(01:12:28)
But I think that there is a way, I note that in that agreement, that proposal that was made as well as the proposal that Senator Rounds negotiated, that Senator Graham has been involved in the past on path to citizenship for Dreamers on doing something about the temporary status people, on looking at people who have not committed crimes and what we can do to make sure our workforce is strong. I think there is a path here and I'm just continuing to focus on where we can go and I would ask you, Mr. Turay, and your story was moving in its own way.

(01:13:04)
You've lived in the US for 21 years, you're now married to an American citizen, have an 18-month-old son who's also a US citizen. And I watched the president-elect's interview on Meet the Press this weekend and he did talk about working with Democrats on the Dreamer issue, which I appreciated. But at the same time then he talked about the only way not to break up a family is you keep them together and then you send them all back. I'm not certain he meant that with Dreamers, but what would happen to your family if you were sent back?

Mr. Foday Turay (01:13:37):

I mean, my family would face serious consequences. As I noted in my testimony, my wife is a US citizen. Our entire family are US citizens. Not only would this impact me on a personal level, but it would impact the US citizens that have built their lives around me. US citizens like my mother-in-law who is legally disabled and has a brain tumor that requires her to take chemo in the United States. If my wife is not around to care for her, if my wife is not around to be there for her mother, it's going to cause serious hardship on her life and potentially cause her to lose her life.

(01:14:13)
And also my brother-in-law has been serving in the Marines since he graduated from high school. He wants to reenlist in the Marines next year. However, he has to choose between the love for his country or the love for his mom and come back home and take care of his mom. So not only is this impacting me on a personal level, it's impacting the people around us that have built their life around me. I've been in this country for so long and to think that you can just remove an individual who United States citizens have built their lives around would not cause hardship on other people around them, it's just disheartening.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):

Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, could you go through just one more time the statistics then I'm out of time here. If the focus was on enforcement as well as the border and going after the people that we know have criminal records here, just that kind of money we'd be talking about if we wanted to focus our efforts on that group as well as I would add to that, it's also going to be more border protection, which we know we need.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:15:20):

Yes, Senator. So we estimate that on average a single deportation costs the US government in today's money slightly under $24,000. So if we're looking at deporting 13 million people, that adds up to hundreds-

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):

I didn't ask that. I'm actually trying to get us to a solution that might work here. I remember when you were talking to Senator Durbin and you talked about if you focused on the group that we know have criminal records that are still out there, that kind of cost and what that would be.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:15:53):

I have to run the exact numbers for you, I'm happy to get those for you, but it is substantially less expensive than what President Trump has repeatedly said he would do, which is aim to deport every single person here regardless of whether they have a conviction or not.

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):

So if we could get that and follow up later, because I think that there'd be some widespread agreement that if we're going to start somewhere for one thing, we must begin with these most serious offenders that are out there and get the money set aside for that. Do more at the border, try to do something positive here with Dreamers and people that are contributing so greatly to our economy and trying to figure this out. We have done this, try this several times and had agreements with Democrats and Republicans in the Senate. Not everyone, not everyone on the left, right, not everyone, but I'm just hoping we can get to a place like that. So thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:16:43):

Thanks, Senator Klobuchar. Senator Kennedy.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Arthur, you are with the Center for Immigration Studies, is that right?

Andrew Arthur (01:16:54):

That's correct, Senator.

Speaker 4 (01:16:55):

And that's a non-partisan think tank, is it?

Andrew Arthur (01:16:58):

It is, sir.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):

Okay. The border is an open, bleeding wound, isn't it?

Andrew Arthur (01:17:07):

That's a fair way to characterize what's been going on for the last four years, sir.

Speaker 4 (01:17:11):

The southern border is chaotic by design, isn't it?

Andrew Arthur (01:17:14):

Yes, it is. I've been covering the border for three decades and yeah, it's pretty chaotic.

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):

Will it be fair to say that the broken southern border is man-made?

Andrew Arthur (01:17:29):

It would be fair to say that, sir, based on policies that have been implemented.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):

And that man's name is Joe Biden, isn't it?

Andrew Arthur (01:17:38):

That would be a fair assessment, yes, Senator

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):

Under President Biden, if you wait in line for legal immigration, you're a chump, aren't you?

Andrew Arthur (01:17:56):

When you look at the benefits that have been given to people and the speed at which they've been released into the United States, I would be chagrined if I were waiting for-

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):

You're a chump, aren't you?

Andrew Arthur (01:18:05):

Yes sir.

Speaker 4 (01:18:07):

General?

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):

Yes, sir?

Speaker 4 (01:18:13):

You believe in open borders, don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):

I believe in the rule of law, sir.

Speaker 4 (01:18:17):

All right. And it makes you angry that President Trump does not believe in open borders, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):

Senator, I'm not here to discuss immigration policy. I'm here to discuss whether or not we use the military to enforce it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:38):

And it makes you angry that most Americans don't believe in open borders, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):

Not in the slightest, sir. Again, I'm not here to discuss the immigration policy.

Speaker 4 (01:18:51):

Yeah, duty, honor, respect. You talked about that-

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):

Yes, sir.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):

In your opening statement. On October of this year, you went on CNN. I want to read you what you said. Make sure I'm accurate. Here's what you said, "President Trump is not like any sane leader. I'm very proud of General Milley for saying that President Trump is a total fascist." To Bob Woodward, "If he is Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is calling the president a fascist, I'm so proud of him for breaking that barrier. The challenge is because most MAGA Republicans, they don't understand what fascism is. The reality is that they are in fact fascists themselves." Did I read that accurately?

Speaker 1 (01:20:02):

Senator, I am happy to discuss my personal perspectives with you separately at any time. That's not the purpose of the hearing today.

Speaker 4 (01:20:10):

Did I read that accurately?

Speaker 1 (01:20:12):

I believe so, yes.

Speaker 4 (01:20:13):

Yeah. You think you're smarter than the American people, don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):

Absolutely not, Senator. I am here to discuss the use of the military as part of this mass deportation.

Speaker 4 (01:20:28):

You think you're more virtuous than the American people, don't you, General?

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):

Senator, I'm insulted by your comment.

Speaker 4 (01:20:39):

Duty, honor, and respect. You talked about that in your opening statement, didn't you?

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):

Yes, sir.

Speaker 4 (01:20:50):

Ms. Morin said, I wrote down her words, she said, "By their actions, you know what someone's character is like." You agree with that?

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):

Senator, for 35 years I served my country with absolute honor and distinction and I will continue to do so.

Speaker 4 (01:21:10):

Do you agree with what Ms. Morin said?

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):

Of course.

Speaker 4 (01:21:20):

Mr… We've got a few minutes left.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):

23 seconds.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):

Well, actually you let Ms. Klobuchar go well over, so I'm assuming you'll extend me the same curtesy.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):

I'll give you the same minute I gave to her.

Speaker 4 (01:21:34):

You gave it a minute 20, I timed it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):

You're using-

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):

I watched you like a hawk, Dick. Mr. Melnick, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, you believe in open borders too, don't you?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:21:46):

I do not, Mr. Kennedy.

Speaker 4 (01:21:47):

Okay, on November 1st, 2022, you tweeted, "Both Texas and Louisiana have their knives out for Black immigrants." Do you remember that tweet? I don't, but it's quite possible.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:08):

What Texans, it's not only possible it happened. You're not denying it, are you?

(01:22:15)
No, I'm saying referring to the context-

Speaker 4 (01:22:20):

What Texans? Who are you talking to-

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:20):

I actually don't know the context.

Speaker 4 (01:22:20):

Who are you talking to about who in Texas had their knives out for Black immigrants?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:27):

I'm guessing the context, but my suspicion is it has to do the-

Speaker 4 (01:22:31):

Give me a name.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:31):

Attorney General Ken Paxton and the Attorney General of Louisiana.

Speaker 4 (01:22:34):

Give me a name.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:34):

I just did.

Speaker 4 (01:22:36):

You don't have a name do you?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:37):

I just said Ken Paxton.

Speaker 4 (01:22:38):

You don't have a name do you? You just said it.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:40):

I just said Ken Paxton.

Speaker 4 (01:22:42):

All right, how about Louisiana? You said Louisiana has its knives out for Black immigrants. Who in Louisiana were you talking about?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:50):

Again, I'm not certain. That was two years ago and as I'm sure you know, much has happened in the last two years.

Speaker 4 (01:22:55):

Well, did you say it?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:22:57):

Again, I do not remember the context, Senator Kennedy.

Speaker 4 (01:23:00):

You said somebody had their knives out from Louisiana for Black immigrants, but you don't know who they were, you just said it?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:23:07):

I said the Attorney General of Louisiana and Texas. And I believe this referred to specifically lawsuits brought and arguments that were made in court that the arrival of Haitians and others [inaudible 01:23:18]-

Speaker 4 (01:23:17):

I'm out of time but I want to-

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:23:18):

Inherently dangerous-

Speaker 4 (01:23:18):

[inaudible 01:23:20] On the records was-

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):

Thank you very much, Senator. I appreciate your questions-

Speaker 4 (01:23:22):

You believe the Attorney General at that time of Louisiana had his knives out for Black immigrants. That's your testimony?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:23:29):

Given their litigation conduct, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):

Thank you, Senator Kennedy. Senator Hirono?

Speaker 5 (01:23:33):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have a broken immigration system. This was acknowledged over a decade ago when I first arrived in the United States Senate and we actually in 2013, we had a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that addressed the issues of all of the immigrants who are working in various large sectors of our economy, i.e. in the ag sector, where the Chamber of Commerce are concerned about what we're doing with immigration policy, where we dealt with the undocumented immigrants who are working and paying taxes for which they get absolutely, they're paying the social security Medicare, they don't get those benefits at all. So we have a broken immigration system. We actually had the two senators who are sitting here, the chairman and the former chair of the committee who are part of a comprehensive immigration reform. So I don't know why we cannot come to some sort of an agreement to deal with the massive complex issues that confront us.

(01:24:43)
So that is what I'm calling for. Until we make a commitment to comprehensive immigration reform, pointing fingers at the Biden administration or any other administration, it's not going to get us for anywhere fast. And in fact, every administration has had border enforcement policies. You may not like the policies. For example, I certainly didn't support the Trump policy of separating thousands, thousands of children from their parents without keeping track of who their parents were. All I'm asking for is a rational, reasonable, humane immigration policy. So that was what I thought the comprehensive immigration bill in 2013 was. I didn't agree with all of the provisions, but some of us worked really hard on it and Senator Graham, as I mentioned was part of that.

(01:25:41)
So that's what I think we ought to be focusing on. Now, General Manner, I'm glad you're here because we have a president who has said many times that he intends to use the military to do immigration policies to affect his immigration policies. And General Manner, you said that that is going to have a very negative impact on readiness, for example, because our military, including the National Guard, they're not trained for immigration enforcement. So as the chair currently of the Armed Services Committees Readiness Subcommittee, I share your concerns. By the way, maybe you can go over again a little bit more. What kind of infrastructure would be needed to enforce immigration deportation on up to 4% of our population? What kind of infrastructure would we need in order to affect that?

Speaker 1 (01:26:45):

I have to defer to the other experts on the panel.

Speaker 5 (01:26:48):

Okay, well, then that would be Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Am I pronouncing your name?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:26:52):

Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:26:52):

Would you like to go into some of that?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:26:54):

Senator, in order to carry out that form of operation would require hiring tens of thousands of new law enforcement agents. It would require building dozens if not hundreds of new detention centers, hiring thousands of new judges all at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars, potentially up to or more than a trillion dollars over the course of more than a decade.

Speaker 5 (01:27:15):

Do you support comprehensive immigration reform?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:27:18):

I do. We-

Speaker 5 (01:27:19):

Does anybody on this panel not support comprehensive immigration reform that really gets to some of the problem, well, that really addresses the issues that we're facing. Anybody on the panel?

Andrew Arthur (01:27:31):

Senator, I have to say, comprehensive immigration reform is not a defined term. And as with all legislation, the devil's in the detail.

Speaker 5 (01:27:38):

You can lool at, excuse me, you can look at-

Andrew Arthur (01:27:38):

Sorry.

Speaker 5 (01:27:40):

The 2013 bill and that had some of the kinds of, that would be what I would describe as comprehensive. It was not the answer, it is not the be all and end all, but it was pretty comprehensive, wouldn't you say?

Andrew Arthur (01:27:52):

I was actually on the bench at the time that that bill was introduced. I was an immigration judge and not involved in legislation.

Speaker 5 (01:27:59):

Well, it was, trust me when I say that it was about as comprehensive immigration reform as we have managed to do in over a decade at this point. And that's more, I think what we need to do. And I don't think there's anybody here who supports something called the open borders because as I said, every single administration has had border enforcement policy. You may not agree with all of that. I don't think there's anybody sitting here who supports open borders, whatever the heck that means. But we all know that we need to have border control.

(01:28:30)
We need that, but what are we going to do about the 11 million to 13 million undocumented people here who are very much a part of our community and the fabric of many, many communities, not to mention that there are US citizens that are part of their families. And are we going to start busting them up? What's that going to do? So before we start throwing out all kinds so-called solutions, I think we need to think about what are we going to do to have a rational, reasonable immigration policy. And that's what I'm calling for. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):

Thank you. Senator Hirono. Senator Blackburn?

Speaker 6 (01:29:11):

Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you to each of you for being here today. Ms. Morin, I am so sorry for your loss. I know that's been a very difficult time for you and your family and this truly is a season of sorrow for you all and I recognize that. I find it so interesting, this open border policy that we've seen is not a compassionate policy. I've talked to people that work with human trafficking and sex trafficking and what is happening to women and children is abhorrent and we all are fully aware of that. Mr. Chairman, I appreciated your remark that we should deport those that are truly a danger to Americans. I think that's accurate. I don't think there's anything anyone would disagree with that. We've all seen the uptick in violent crimes such as Ms. Morin and her family have experienced. And this is the reason I reintroduced my CLEAR Act this year, which would enable local law enforcement when they apprehend someone who's in the country illegally to detain them and then call on ICE to deport them.

(01:30:29)
And then the federal government have to repay that local law enforcement agency for what they've spent in that apprehension, that detention. And we should pass this bill today and that would be a good thing for this committee to be doing this last week. Pull it up, put it on the hotline, and run it. Is there anybody on this panel that disagrees with deporting criminal illegal aliens? Raise your hand if you disagree with that. Everybody agrees. Those that have committed crimes against our citizens should be deported. Mr. Arthur, I want to come to you, talk for just one minute about why it is important that we empower local law enforcement to carry out the job that the federal government has not done

Andrew Arthur (01:31:28):

Well, you actually heard Mr. Reichlin- Melnick talk about how few ICE enforcement removal officers there are. There's always going to be a set number of those individuals. When you allow police officers who are involved in their community who are the first line actually putting hands on criminals, they're going to be the people who are best able to pull those individuals out of the community. It's important to note, Senator, that when you talk about immigrant crime, Ms. Morin's situation is horrible and every crime is horrible. So much of that immigrant crime takes place in immigrant communities. Sanctuary jurisdictions do nothing but punish the immigrants that those individuals that live in those communities that those criminals are sent back to. So that's why it's absolutely crucial.

Speaker 6 (01:32:16):

I appreciate that. So I think we should move forward with my legislation, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, I'd like to come to you. I want to talk about some of your tweets. You've been active on X. Here's one, "This is bad analysis that bears a little resemblance to the facts. The Remain in Mexico program was not very successful, it was a human rights disaster that fed people to the cartels with not much impact on border crossings. Plus Biden ended it when it was barely in use at all."

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:32:51):

That's correct.

Speaker 6 (01:32:52):

So let's talk about that. So do you still believe that Remain in Mexico was not very successful?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:33:00):

It wasn't. In fact, it was one of a suite of programs that went into effect in 2019, about four or five different ones over the course of about eight months-

Speaker 6 (01:33:07):

Do you believe it was a human rights disaster?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:33:10):

Yes, and I can tell you the stories of the women sent back by the United States to Mexico who were raped in Mexico, because of that.

Speaker 6 (01:33:18):

They actually tell you stories of people that were raped along the way, people that have been trafficking-

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:33:21):

And we sent them back to those traffickers-

Speaker 6 (01:33:21):

And drug dealers. And drug dealers-

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:33:25):

Remain in Mexico gave people to the cartels and we turned our eyes away from them.

Speaker 6 (01:33:29):

Remain in Mexico was successful and we all know it.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:33:32):

It was not.

Speaker 6 (01:33:32):

Now, let me talk to you about another tweet that you put up. "There are not 320,000 missing children-"

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:33:39):

That's correct.

Speaker 6 (01:33:41):

"That number is a false interpretation of a DHS OIG report that said that 32,000 people who entered as unaccompanied children from 2019 to 2023 were ordered deported for missing court and ICE failed to file charging documents for 291,000 more." Now-

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:34:04):

That's right. That's an accurate description of the OIG report.

Speaker 6 (01:34:07):

"This is a human rights disaster, because what we have heard is the DHS Inspector General and what they have testified is that they found 32,000 migrant children did not show up for their court date and an additional 291,000 migrant children never received notices to appear."

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:34:33):

That's correct. That's what my tweet said.

Speaker 6 (01:34:35):

Is it your testimony that DHS does in fact know the whereabouts of every single one of these 320,000 children and they're just not telling people where these children are?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:34:49):

No, because that's not DHS's function here. It says also Office of Refugee Resettlement. It's not their job to go out and find every single people.

Speaker 6 (01:34:56):

It is DHS and ORR. It is DHS and ORR. And what we know-

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:34:59):

I guess the broader point is somebody isn't missing if no one's looking for them

Speaker 6 (01:35:02):

Sir, what we know is that through reports that have been made, reporting even in the New York Times, many of these children are in abusive situations. They are working in plants. And indeed, DHS says that you've got this 320,000 migrant children that cannot be located. That is a human rights disaster. I yield back.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:35:38):

Senator Blackburn, they did not say they can't be located, they said that they had not even attempted to file charging documents-

Speaker 6 (01:35:44):

My time is expired. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:35:45):

Which is a very different thing.

Speaker 6 (01:35:46):

Chairman,

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):

I'm going to give the witness an opportunity to finish his remarks.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:35:50):

I just want to note, the DHS report did not say these children were missing. It said that ICE had failed on the job to actually start the court process for them. If ICE filed the court documents, many of those people would be living at the exact address that the ICE told them. It's just ICE has not filed the charging documents, it's not that they're missing. And of course exploitation is very real and we've called for more labor enforcement to ensure it doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (01:36:13):

Senator Padilla?

Mr. Padilla (01:36:15):

Thank you Mr. Chair. And the fact that we're still discussing, debating the struggle to reconnect children who were separated from their parents more than four years ago today should tell us a lot about what to expect in the next administration. I think it's worthy of further conversation, maybe a different hearing, a different day to focus on that. Just as a reminder for folks that are observing today's hearing, that the topic, the stated topic of today's hearing is quote, "how mass deportations will separate American families, harm our armed forces, and devastate our economy." So I'll attempt in my questions to bring us back to the focus of this hearing today. But first wanted to point out a couple of notes that I've taken throughout the hearing in hearing from my colleagues on the committee, the issues they've raised, the questions they've raised to underscore a statement I made at the outset, which is how complex this conversation in this policy area is.

(01:37:23)
And so it requires thoughtful and nuanced solutions. Senator Graham was talking about the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, and even questioned witnesses of would you be opposed to someone who has, "had their day in court", he said and has been denied a further stay in the United States after having had their day in court. That sheds light on process, due process, often lack thereof. Representation in the process, lack of representation in the process. I'm for a process and finality of a process, a finality and answer, clarity about your future in a matter of weeks and months, not years and years. But that requires investment in the process by the federal government, in hearing officers, in immigration judges.

(01:38:23)
So let's just lay that out if we're going to be genuine and serious about tackling the backlogs and the issues. Second, man, if I had a nickel for every time I heard fentanyl in this committee. Serious problem, serious problem, but irresponsible in how it's misportrayed so often in immigration conversations. Fentanyl needs to be addressed, fentanyl needs to be stopped. Its illegal importation needs to be tackled. But if we're going to do it thoughtfully and seriously, let's look at what the

Mr. Padilla (01:39:00):

Customs and Border Protection Agency tells us, 80% of individuals who are prosecuted and convicted for bringing fentanyl into this country are United States citizens. Happy to share the link, folks. Happy to share the report port. So if that's a concern, then let's address the heart of the concern, and not just use it as a sound bite to further attack immigrants. By the way, did you know that the numbers at the southern border are way down? People talking about this crisis at the border of crisis, we always need to do more to ensure a safe, orderly, and humane border. But some of these numbers that are being tossed around are not what's happening today because of President Biden's policies this last year. So let's be intellectually honest with ourselves and the public.

(01:40:01)
Now that being said, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, you're pretty popular today. I have a question for you as well. As you know and you've referenced, the largest mass deportation effort in US history was President Eisenhower's Operation Wetback. I referenced it in my opening statements. During that operation, more than half a million Mexicans and many United States citizens were deported. And as far as anybody can tell, Operation Wetback did not achieve its intended effects of increasing employment rates or wages for US workers.

(01:40:40)
Former President Trump has said that he planned to model his deportations on Operation Wetback. Now, you testified today about the expected negative economic impacts of mass deportation, including the rising costs of food. Some estimates say food prices are going to go up 19% based on this alone. In what world does food become cheaper with mass deportations?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:41:07):

Mass deportations would not cause food prices to become cheaper. The exact opposite would occur. In fact, a single worksite raid in 2018 under the Trump administration at a beef plant in Tennessee led to ground beef prices rising by 25 cents for the year that the plant was out of operation following the raid.

Mr. Padilla (01:41:24):

And just to follow up to that question, I'm cognitive of my time Mr. Chairman. I've referenced so many industries that have significant percentages of undocumented workforce in them. I think chief among them is the agricultural industry, not just nationally, but particularly in the state like California, the longest agricultural producing state in the nation where estimates are… Well, more than 75% of the workforce is undocumented. I hear from growers as do all my colleagues, I hear from labor contractors, as do all my colleagues, about how easy it is for them to recruit United States citizens to do the work in the fields. And let me tell you how easy it is, it is not.

(01:42:11)
There's a reason that the agricultural industry relies on immigrants, including so many undocumented immigrants to help keep the food supply chain going, keep food on the tables of American families. And I invite my colleagues, if you want to get a taste of what it's like and the difficulties for the recruitment to spend a day in the fields, like I did in 2022, picking radishes and parsley. Like Senator Booker did in 2023. Happy to work with growers and farm workers to provide that opportunity for all of you. Follow up question, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, just briefly describe to us what it would look like if the agricultural industry were suddenly to lose half of its workforce.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:42:59):

I mean, if it was overnight, the US food supply would crumble. Undocumented workers work across the agricultural sector from picking crops in the field to meat processing, to poultry processing to dairy, to everything in between. And these are workers that without them, our food supply would drastically diminish. I'm not saying that there's no jobs Americans will do. Of course that's not true. Americans have done those jobs in the past, but it could take decades before we got enough workers to replace the experience and the knowledge of some of these workers who have been doing the jobs for 20, 30 years. It is not something that can just be replaced overnight and would cause severe impact to the US food supply.

Mr. Durbin (01:43:42):

Thank you, Senator Padilla.

Mr. Padilla (01:43:43):

Violent criminals, let's go after them. The vast majority of immigrants and undocumented immigrants who are contributing so much to this country, they deserve better. Thank you.

Mr. Durbin (01:43:52):

Senator Tillis.

Tillis (01:43:54):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to paint a picture of the crisis at the border and what the incoming administration has to deal with. Roughly 8 million people came into this country illegally from the outgoing administration's border policies, 8 million. Does anyone find that acceptable? I'm going to give you all a chance to answer that question shortly. The American people elected a new president in large part to secure the border and deport people who came illegally under their predecessor, so do my democratic colleagues. How many illegal immigrants being deported by the new administration would you find objectionable? Mr. Melnick, I'll ask you, a million?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:44:40):

I think a million would be a disaster.

Tillis (01:44:42):

2 million?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:44:43):

Again, considering we're talking about law-abiding people who've been here for decades, I think that is enough that would have severe negative ramifications for the United States.

Tillis (01:44:50):

3 million?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:44:51):

Same answer.

Tillis (01:44:52):

5 million?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:44:53):

Same answer, even worse ramifications.

Tillis (01:44:55):

Do you think it would be or moral to deport any illegal immigrants?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:45:01):

Yes. I'm not a supporter of open borders, as I said before.

Tillis (01:45:04):

Well, I'm curious what your position was back during the Obama administration when that's exactly what he did. I'm not reading what Trump intends to do. I'm reading exactly what President Barack Obama did when he came into office and deported nearly 5 million people, in excess of 3 million people. So at that time, were you involved politically or in this space at the time that Obama was here? How old were you back then?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:45:32):

I was a graduate of law school, and was working at the time.

Tillis (01:45:35):

Were you opining on deportations at that time?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:45:38):

I was not.

Tillis (01:45:39):

Do you believe that President Obama made a grave horrible inhumane mistake by deporting those folks that came in under the Bush administration?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:45:47):

It wasn't 5 million people. When we're looking at internalized deportations-

Tillis (01:45:50):

It was over 3 million. So let's not split hairs.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:45:52):

Actual numbers are closer to 1.5 internal ICE deportations, and the result was-

Tillis (01:45:57):

But you said that was immoral? So you said President Obama was immoral and inappropriate to deport those million people. Is that what I heard you say?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:46:04):

There were many people were deported under his administration. [inaudible 01:46:08].

Tillis (01:46:05):

It's a yes or no question.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:46:05):

Yes.

Tillis (01:46:10):

I don't normally get into these antagonistic sorts of discussions here, but it needs to be said because you just a month ago said, "At the turn of the century, Jim crow was legal, lynchings were at their highest level in US history, women couldn't vote. The infant mortality rate was 165 per 1000 and the average life expectancy was 47. And we also had quasi-open borders, that part wasn't bad." So let me tell you what I tell everyone who comes in this room and has the polarizing testimony, sir, that you have had. You're a part of the problem. I'm a part of a group of people here who have said as the president did incidentally on Sunday, he believes there should be a path for Dreamers. We're demonizing President Trump for something he may or may not do, but he has said to his Republican base, he believes that there should be certainty for Dreamers.

(01:47:15)
He's also said that we have to have a secure border, and as long as the border is not secure, people like me who try to treat people who are in the state that they are here with respect and understanding some of the issues that Mr. Padilla brought up, you cause people to go into their corners and get nothing done. That is why Chair Durbin has not been able to fulfill the promise on Dreamers every single year he is tried for the last 20 because people like you make it impossible to have a… Let me finish, and then I'll let you speak as long as the chair wants to… have a rational discussion about it. Because if we don't secure the border, I can't get a path to citizenship for the DACA population. If we don't secure the border, I can't get Democrats and Republicans to come together and give certainty to the dreamer population.

(01:48:12)
Are there any Dreamers in the room? Raise your hand if you are. All right. Well, this is a part of the problem ladies and gentlemen. You have an incoming Republican president who just said as late as Sunday that he's prepared to give you certainty. But we have people here demonizing him for asking the reasonable question of, can't we all agree that we need to secure the border? So if you are sincerely, I don't know how you make your money. I don't care what your political motives are, but number one, I would really appreciate it to say, if you would go out on social media and say that the president, Obama, did a horrible disservice to those people. He deported and he's as every other Republican who said, we've got to secure the border, deport people because you can't have one being okay and the other one not being okay.

(01:49:02)
And if you don't come to the table and recognize in a world where, yeah, 100 years ago, it was probably safe to have a quasi-open border because the world order was changing and we emerged as a world leader. But today, we have terrorists that can fly from the Middle East, land in Mexico and come across the border in less than 24 hours. We're not living in Ellis Island anymore. We've got a problem that can't be solved and people like you, are creating more obstacles to people like me who are willing to take hits from my own party to satisfy what people like Donald Trump want to get done. Thank you. One question, just state…

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:49:42):

May I respond?

Speaker 7 (01:49:45):

No. Thank you, Senator. It's my time, so I'm going to speak. First of all, I want to thank all the witnesses. I think we're actually going to start making progress on securing the border, and on a sensible in humane policy. I want to thank folks from the immigrant community and Dreamers who I know are here, and acknowledge my respect for the contributions you've made to our country. And I don't want to lose the benefit of that. As I've listened to my colleagues, I think it's not that complex. Number one, I think there is agreement. We have to have a secure border. You can't have a country that doesn't have a control over its border. Second, I think there's broad consensus that criminals who are here should be deported. Ms. Morin just want to acknowledge as we all have the incredible life you've had the loss of your daughter and your own experience. People do that, they shouldn't have gotten in and they shouldn't be here, and if they are here, they should be in jail. Third, we have the question of people whose status has been determined, but it took so long for that status to be determined in many cases, years and years, that they become an integral part of their community and they put roots down here and they haven't committed a crime. This is where we don't have consensus. There's a view among some, and I think President-elect Trump has this view that if you are here illegally, no matter how long it took for that adjudication to occur, and no matter what your roots are, then you should go back.

(01:51:35)
Senator Graham was indicating a view that if you've been adjudicated, fair is fair and you should go back. There's another point of view and that is that if you have been here and we had a system that didn't adjudicate in any timely way and you have been working… Put it in very specific terms on a farm in Vermont for seven or for eight or for nine years, and you become a contributing member to the community and the economy. There's another approach one could take where you might pay a fine, you might have to make amends for the fact that you came here illegally, but there'd be an acknowledgement of the contributions you've made, the roots you've established and what the harm to the community would be, and that certainly would be the case in Vermont. Just speaking about agriculture, I just can't imagine… Actually, I can't imagine. I've talked to some farmers who, if they lost their labor, would lose their farm because cows don't milk themselves and they are not able to get local labor to do that.

(01:52:41)
So there is a real potential here for us to find common ground and get something done that is securing the border, that is deporting criminals, that is making judgments about allowing people the option of paying a fine where there would be a deterrent as long as we have a secure border. Ms. Morin, I just want to ask you, you've suffered so much and I want to express to you my gratitude for your advocacy on behalf of others, but if we had a secure border, you're advocating for that. If we have and that keeps criminals out, would it be in conflict with what you think would be a reasonable outcome for like Dreamers, for instance, folks who kids who came here with their parents who've not committed any crime, who've become parts of the community. Would that be something that you would see as a reasonable outcome to find a way for them to have a legal status?

Ms. Patty Morin (01:53:55):

A couple of things from listening to everyone speak. One, as an American citizen and not a politician, so I don't know all the ins and outs. But just what I'm hearing is the bottom line is profit. To an American citizen, they're hearing you're putting profit above American lives. So that's the message you're communicating. For me personally, our country is made of immigrants. We have 250 years or more of immigrants that have come to this country and have built the country to what it is today, and we are descendants of those immigrants. The issue is having an open border that allows an invasion of people that compromises our national security because our borders, we don't have enough border agents to stem the flow of immigrants. But then also they bypass the law to speed up them coming in and in doing so, they miss all the criminals that are coming into our country.

(01:55:11)
So I think we need to put those laws back into place and to practice so we can catch them at the border. And then I think that we should work towards those that have come to the country, if it's illegal. Illegal, the very word itself means unlawful. So are we saying it's okay to come to America in an unlawful way? There has to be some kind of a line, a precedence of what is lawful and what isn't lawful.

Speaker 7 (01:55:44):

I thank you for that. I mean the heart of, at least as I hear what you're saying is that we have to have a secure border in the first place?

Ms. Patty Morin (01:55:52):

Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:55:52):

Yeah. Well, thank you again. My time is up, and I'm going to… Are you next, Hawley? Senator from Missouri.

Hawley (01:56:05):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to the witnesses for being here. I have to say I'm amazed that we're holding this hearing. To me it's remarkable that the idea of actually as you were just saying, Ms. Morin, the idea of enforcing our laws, protecting our border, securing our streets from criminals. It's amazing that that's controversial at all. And it says something a lot about the other side of the dais that we're having this hearing today. Let me just ask you, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, I mean is it really such a bad idea to deport people like the criminal who killed this young man? This is Travis Wolf. He was 12 years old when he was killed. He was mowed down and I do mean mowed down in a car by an illegal immigrant, 12 years of age walking along a sidewalk in my state of Missouri, mowed down by an illegal immigrant who I think also had a prior criminal record. Is this such a bad idea to deport the person who killed him?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:57:05):

Any person who commits a heinous crime should suffer the consequences under the law.

Hawley (01:57:08):

Good. What about Officer David Lee? Officer David Lee was killed in Missouri just a few months ago by another illegal immigrant, once again in a car who used it as a lethal weapon to ram him and kill him. Is it so wrong, such a bad idea to deport the illegal immigrant who killed this good man?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:57:27):

Again, any person who commits an awful act should face the full force of the law. And I've never said [inaudible 01:57:33].

Hawley (01:57:32):

We've had multiple stabbings in the state of Missouri at laundromats, in O'Fallon Missouri where innocent civilians were going to do their laundry of an evening and were attacked with knives, smashed, bled, stomped upon, should the illegals who did that, should they not be deported?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:58:05):

As I said [inaudible 01:58:05].

Hawley (01:58:05):

Over one [inaudible 01:58:07] this legal immigrant deported.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:58:13):

They should face the consequences. Are a very small, the population that President Trump is promising to deport, 13 million people.

Hawley (01:58:21):

Well, let's about the rest of the people who you don't want to be deported. You said in an article that you wrote recently, new report shows devastating costs of mass deportation. You wrote this in October. Do you remember this piece?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:58:36):

Yes. That is a summary of our report that we published in October.

Hawley (01:58:38):

Yeah. So in this piece, and it's also in your written testimony, you talk about how much the economy will lose if the United States actually enforces our immigration laws and deports folks who are here illegally. And I want to quote you now, you say, "Some industries would be particularly hard hit including construction, agriculture and hospitality, which can… and a half million workers.? What's the argument here that there aren't American workers?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:59:05):

No, and as I said… But the issue with… decades.

Hawley (01:59:09):

Wages to rise?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:59:10):

I think that we want to pass a path to citizenship so we can have a level and fair playing field for every American.

Hawley (01:59:16):

Why would you want American citizens and those who are here lawfully to have to compete against illegal immigrants, who by the way, are often paid non-minimum wage, who are not given the federally mandated benefits precisely because they're here illegally? Why would you want to drive down the wages of millions of working Americans who can't get those jobs in construction, agriculture and hospitality because illegal immigrants are getting them? Suppressing wages in the meantime. Why would you want to do that?

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (01:59:43):

Well, if you've been here for my initial testimony, I don't want-

Hawley (01:59:45):

Listen, I read your testimony word for word, and I've been watching it and I know what the answer is. You don't actually care about working people because you're absolutely hell-bent on this ideological agenda of opening our border. You want to give everybody who's here a path to citizenship. You want blanket amnesty. You talk about mass deportations, that's your word, not Trump's. You want mass amnesty. It's right here in your testimony. We want a path to citizenship for… That's amnesty.

(02:00:10)
You're here to answer my question not for a soliloquy and let me just… against it. An open border for the last 15 years has been a… People have died lower because of it, are chaos because of it and Democrat party to say more of the same, let's double down. I think that's insanity. I think insanity in the American people.

Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (02:00:10):

Senator Hawley, we have a choice in either…

Speaker 8 (02:02:16):

Seen the most radical experiment in open borders this nation has ever seen. There are many reasons the American people showed up at overwhelming numbers to vote, to reelect Donald Trump to elect a Republican majority in the Senate to reelect a Republican majority in the house. But there was no reason more front and center than the open borders of the last four years. And I have to say, I think there were a number of us wondering, did any of the Democrats in Congress learn anything from the election? And existence of this hearing makes very clear the answer is no. We've seen 12 million people come into this country illegally under Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Texas has seen… Crap for over… a read this election.

(02:03:11)
When your home is invaded a million people, it changes your voting patterns. Every single day we have seen Americans murdered. We have seen women raped. We have seen children brutalized by criminal, illegal aliens released deliberately by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. The numbers are staggering. According to ICE, as of July 21st, 2024, nearly 650,000 criminal illegal aliens were currently on ICE's non… Had been released, wondering… Of those 6,004 have been… of homicide. You want to know what mass deport, those 14,000 people better pack their bags right now because with a new administration, we're going to arrest you and we are going to deport you.

(02:04:24)
20,061 have been convicted of sexual assault. Now, I want you to ask of my Democrat colleagues, and it is striking that virtually none of them are here, that is reflected in their conduct because they are silent and putting their head in the sand as to the human tragedies. But what resident of what Blue State says, "You know what? America's better off with 20,000 rapists being released into this country?" 105,146 have been convicted of assault. I would ask my Democrat colleagues if they were here, why the hell today does the Biden administration not go and arrest every one of these criminals and deport them? What rational world says, America's better off with more criminals?

(02:05:19)
And these are not just statistics. Ms. Morin, thank you for being here. The country grieves the loss of your daughter. Your daughter was beautiful. She was a mom who I know loved your kids. And she's not with us today. She was raped and murdered because this administration chose to release a violent criminal into America. Your daughter should still be alive, and every one of these victims should still be alive. Laken Riley, a name that the Democrats on this committee can't bring themselves to utter, should still be alive. And in my hometown of Houston, Jocelyn Nungaray, I've gotten to know Jocelyn's mother Alexis very well. Ms. Morin like you, Alexis, is incredibly brave. I cannot imagine the pain. I'm a father. To lose your child, no parent should have to bury their child. Children should bury their parents, not the other way around. It is wrong what happened to you.

(02:06:43)
But I want to say to you, thank you for having the courage to tell Rachel's story. I would understand if you just curled up in a ball and cried, and I'm sure you have wept a lot of tears. But thank you for having the courage to tell Rachel's story. And I want to say if there is anything that is a mandate from this election, it is to end this insanity. Stop these murders, stop these rapes, stop these assaults, protect our citizens. And Ms. Morin, I just want to give you the opportunity at the end of my questioning to share from your perspective why this matters. Why we should stop releasing criminals into America.

Ms. Patty Morin (02:07:39):

In order to prepare for this hearing, I was actually looking at statistics over the last couple of days and most of the rape and murder statistics by illegal immigrants are actually against children. And to me that's astounding. I don't know how many people here have children or grandchildren, but can you imagine your 7, 8, 9 year old daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger, sometimes multiple times? This is the culture and I realize it's not all immigrants, but this is the culture that they come from, this kind of violence, they grow up in it in their countries. To them it's just part of what they've known for their lives.

(02:08:32)
But to bring that criminal culture into America, it's destroying our families. I know of women in my hometown that have come up to me because they know I'm Rachel's mom and say to me, "Some guy just ran up behind me and tried to pull me down to the ground. And if it wasn't for the fact that I could fight him off and run to a store to call the police, I might not be here." And in one incidence that man had attacked seven other women. Why are we allowing this? And then the women and children that are raped and because they're so ashamed of what's happened to them, how they've been so violated, they don't say anything. So the numbers are grossly underestimated, I believe, as far as the crimes that are happening in our country. And I think we need to stop this.

Speaker 8 (02:09:31):

Thank you very much.

Mr. Durbin (02:09:33):

Thank you very much. I appreciate all the witnesses appearing before the committee today. There are obviously many questions asked about the mass deportation proposal of the president-elect. As I said earlier, I listened carefully at the meet the press yesterday, and I believe the magnitude of that statement is growing in the mind of the President-elect. Mr. Melnick, you certainly allude to that in terms of the number of personnel and the cost to our nation. Bottom line, we have no tolerance for keeping danger who've come to this country and asked to be made citizens. And we certainly have no interest in a policy that allows them to come across the border with impunity.

(02:10:24)
But the mass deportation includes not only that possibility of stopping those people, but an impact on Mr. Touré and his family. I think most of us would agree that a man who's given his life to criminal prosecution is a value to us based on what Ms. Morin just mentioned. And I think we should go forward with that in mind. Let's be thoughtful and reflective, and do things that make America safer and are consistent with our values. The hearing record will remain open for one week for additional materials to be submitted. And with that, the meeting of this committee stands adjourned.